Which radar will perform best with Opencpn?

[Franziska]

Thanks very much for clearing that up :-)
For now I am happy we can prewire as intended.

Originally Posted by Hakan

No you've got it to a mix.
All Navico broadband types, (BR24) 3G, 4G and Halo, are supported by radar_pi and OCPN.
The 3G is then a Navico and not a Furuno and no Furuno is supported by radar_pi.
Read more here about radar_pi and supported types: https://github.com/opencpn-radar-pi/radar_pi/wiki

There are also advises about connections.
Håkan

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bill O

I really dislike "assuming" something works and was hoping for confirmation from someone else installed and was using it w/ocpn.

It more for curiosity question and hope our current gps (or the auto backup unit) works for the MARPA to work well.

The whole purpose of NMEA2000 certification -- an expensive process -- is to GUARANTEE compatibility. Any NMEA2000 certified compass MUST be compatible with any other certified NMEA2000 device, including whatever device you use to convert the PNG to the 0183 sentence "HDG", which is what O understands and uses.

So it's not an assumption. You are relying on the certification, and you are paying for this reliance when you buy an NMEA2000 certified device.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Thanks very much for clearing that up :-)
For now I am happy we can prewire as intended.

Hakan is exactly right.

But as the owner of a Navico 4G radar, I think you have better choices today.

If you want to go with Navico (you have to decide this together with your choice of plotter, BTW), and assuming budget is not the primary concern, then I would go with the biggest HALO radar you can fit. The HALO24 dome will be dramatically better, I think, than the 4G radar. You might want to also look at Raymarine.


I would go with a HALO radar myself this winter, but it is not compatible with my first generation B&G plotters. And I don't like these plotters enough to be willing to upgrade them. I will wait and then change out the entire system for Furuno in a few years. I would like to get 10 years out of this gear before investing in an upgrade, and one of several things I dislike about Navico is that they "orphan" their gear after only two or three years, assuming you change your electronics every two or three years as if they were disposable like mobile phones. But marine electronics are much too expensive to discard like a two year old mobile phone; I dislike this approach. Another reason to go to Furuno.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

---That was clear, what is not clear, maybe as a result of my ignorance, is where the computations for MARPA are done -- does the plugin do the MARPA computations in your computer? Does it work better than the Navico done ones? And you are even able to do ARPA? Maybe I haven't played with the plugin enough. Sorry for my ignorance.

The (M)ARPA target detection, isolation and forecast calculations are done in radar_pi. Both with the same methods. We call it MARPA when it's initiated by the radar menu parts and ARPA when the guard zone is detecting the target. All as of my previous picture.
I've a 3G and no MFD so I've never tried the Navico methods.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Hakan

The (M)ARPA target detection, isolation and forecast calculations are done in radar_pi. Both with the same methods. We call it MARPA when it's initiated by the radar menu parts and ARPA when the guard zone is detecting the target. All as of my previous picture.
I've a 3G and no MFD so I've never tried the Navico methods.

OK, fantastic. I will try MARPA in O the next time I go out in my boat. Very interesting. That should settle once and for all whether the poor MARPA performance is caused by the software, or by something else.

[CarlF]

I used to have one of those "steam powered" Raytheon radars that Dockhead refers to - but that was before Raytheon spun off RayMarine to focus on defense. The Raytheon radar didn't have a fancy color display but it sure had the best MARPA I've ever had. I wish I could still buy a Raytheon radar.

[merrimac]

Let me recap this ...


Q: Which radar will perform best with Opencpn?
A: Navico HALO.


(Reasoning: the Navico radars are the only supported modern ones without a magnetron, e.g. no 90s startup cycle, 40-50W power consumption but instead instant on and 17-22W power. The Broadband 3G/4G have weak distant performance and are weak in detecting weather. HALO fixes this as it uses a different technology comparable to Raymarine Quantum and the latest Furuno radars, but those are not supported.)



Q: Is MARPA useless on Navico 3G/4G?
A: Plugin: no this works fine as this is calculated in the plugin.
A: Navico MFD: not very good as the Windows CE hardware in the 3G/4G is not very capable. HALO is much better.



Q: But I want a Furuno / Raymarine Quantum / Garmin new radar.
A: Buy one and help port the plugin. Hint: it takes many many hours to reverse engineer the protocol details as the manufacturers provide no help.



Q: Why do you only support older Garmin (and soon Raymarine) radars?
A: Because that is what people have owned and worked on.


The core 3 developers all run Navico radars. By accident, we have a mix of 3G, 4G and HALO24+.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by merrimac

Let me recap this ...

Q: Which radar will perform best with Opencpn?
A: Navico HALO.

(Reasoning: the Navico radars are the only supported modern ones without a magnetron, e.g. no 90s startup cycle, 40-50W power consumption but instead instant on and 17-22W power. The Broadband 3G/4G have weak distant performance and are weak in detecting weather. HALO fixes this as it uses a different technology comparable to Raymarine Quantum and the latest Furuno radars, but those are not supported.)

Q: Is MARPA useless on Navico 3G/4G?
A: Plugin: no this works fine as this is calculated in the plugin.
A: Navico MFD: not very good as the Windows CE hardware in the 3G/4G is not very capable. HALO is much better.

Q: But I want a Furuno / Raymarine Quantum / Garmin new radar.
A: Buy one and help port the plugin. Hint: it takes many many hours to reverse engineer the protocol details as the manufacturers provide no help.

Q: Why do you only support older Garmin (and soon Raymarine) radars?
A: Because that is what people have owned and worked on.

The core 3 developers all run Navico radars. By accident, we have a mix of 3G, 4G and HALO24+.

And worth saying again how much we appreciate the great work you guys do.


Beer is on me anytime we might be in the same port on the same day.

[Franziska]

Absolutely! The OpenCPN developers are doing an awesome job & Cruisersforum is such a valuable resource of expertise and information. Thank you!

As there has been a good recap :-)
So you guys which have experience with the last few radar generations.

What SPECFIC model would you aim for with a MAX budget of say 1500€ if you want full PC OpenCPN compatability and good overall performance at minimum power draw?

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And worth saying again how much we appreciate the great work you guys do.


Beer is on me anytime we might be in the same port on the same day.

[merrimac]

Originally Posted by Franziska

What SPECFIC model would you aim for with a MAX budget of say 1500€ if you want full PC OpenCPN compatability and good overall performance at minimum power draw?

You don't have a lot of choice at 1500 EUR especially if that is incl sales tax. All radars are more expensive than that other than the "special offers" now being made for 3G and 4G as they are no longer being made.

[Hakan]

Franziska..

re:What SPECFIC model would you aim for with a MAX budget of say 1500€ if you want full PC OpenCPN compatability and good overall performance at minimum power draw?

Prizes and local promotional discounts differs a lot.
I'd say the priority would be Navico: 1) Halo, 2) 4G and 3) 3G. Look around what's available. One hint could be to ask for a scanner as a "spare part" since you don't seem to have a need for the MFD but instead will connect directly to the OCPN-PC. The "spare part" package in Europe use to include a scanner and the RI10/11 interface. That's how I once bought my 3G.
I can't compare to a Garmin HD/HDx since I've never seen them on the same time.
The power consumption are equally small on all of them. My 3G takes about 1.5 A at transmit and 0.4 while idle.

[Franziska]

Thank you Hakan,

we will prewire in 2021 as per your suggestion and than in the next winter hunt for one of the units on your list.
We never buy the very latest tec, anything 2-5 years old is good for us.

Thanks again for your very helpful info & the plugin.
Feels great that with a bit of luck we get into the final big departure refit in 2021.

Everybody stay safe so that you can fulfill your dreams.

Originally Posted by Hakan

Franziska..

re:What SPECFIC model would you aim for with a MAX budget of say 1500€ if you want full PC OpenCPN compatability and good overall performance at minimum power draw?

Prizes and local promotional discounts differs a lot.
I'd say the priority would be Navico: 1) Halo, 2) 4G and 3) 3G. Look around what's available. One hint could be to ask for a scanner as a "spare part" since you don't seem to have a need for the MFD but instead will connect directly to the OCPN-PC. The "spare part" package in Europe use to include a scanner and the RI10/11 interface. That's how I once bought my 3G.
I can't compare to a Garmin HD/HDx since I've never seen them on the same time.
The power consumption are equally small on all of them. My 3G takes about 1.5 A at transmit and 0.4 while idle.

[Andreas29]

Hi,

for now three years I´use a Simrad(Navico) 3g radarscanner on my sailing boat.
I use the scanner with OC and the radar-plugin. No MFD from Simrad/Navico

The Scanner is connected via the RI10 and Ethernet cable to my raspberry pi 3b+ running OpenCPN

For radaroverlay I use a homebrewed headingsensor based on an arduino (search for "inexpensive heading sensor" here in the forum).

The scanner is mounted on a aft. radar pole ca. 3m over the water.

(M)ARPA works for me. All (M)ARPA calculations are done in the plugin, not in the dome.

I can say that I can detect rain or thunderstorm cells 15 to 20 sm away.
Cargo ships 12 to 20 sm
Small ships 3 to 8 sm

I can see the (sometimes very small) buoys of the fairways of the waddenseas here in the netherlands. In light or rough weather conditions.

I can´t see a lower performance compared to my 2kW magnetron radar witch I had before.

There was a software bug with the 3g/4g domes so that marpa calulations done from the dome were useless. Navico fixed this with a firmeware update from June2017 for the post 2014 models.
If this made marpa better I can´t say cause I use the marpa calculations based on the plugin and they are ok as long as the dome can detect the target.

All in all this radar dome was and is a good instrument for getting more informations from the world around my boat. In combination with AIS and Eyeball 1.0 It helps to get an overwiew.
For me the performance was and is ok.

Today, when I had to decide witch radar dome to buy, I would look witch radar works with OpenCPN and then look witch of theese scanners fits for me. When one of the HALO-scanners work, go with them or buy a 4g witch are maybe "cheap" now

Best regards

Andreas

[Franziska]

Great info. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Andreas29

Hi,

for now three years I´use a Simrad(Navico) 3g radarscanner on my sailing boat.
I use the scanner with OC and the radar-plugin. No MFD from Simrad/Navico

The Scanner is connected via the RI10 and Ethernet cable to my raspberry pi 3b+ running OpenCPN

For radaroverlay I use a homebrewed headingsensor based on an arduino (search for "inexpensive heading sensor" here in the forum).

The scanner is mounted on a aft. radar pole ca. 3m over the water.

(M)ARPA works for me. All (M)ARPA calculations are done in the plugin, not in the dome.

I can say that I can detect rain or thunderstorm cells 15 to 20 sm away.
Cargo ships 12 to 20 sm
Small ships 3 to 8 sm

I can see the (sometimes very small) buoys of the fairways of the waddenseas here in the netherlands. In light or rough weather conditions.

I can´t see a lower performance compared to my 2kW magnetron radar witch I had before.

There was a software bug with the 3g/4g domes so that marpa calulations done from the dome were useless. Navico fixed this with a firmeware update from June2017 for the post 2014 models.
If this made marpa better I can´t say cause I use the marpa calculations based on the plugin and they are ok as long as the dome can detect the target.

All in all this radar dome was and is a good instrument for getting more informations from the world around my boat. In combination with AIS and Eyeball 1.0 It helps to get an overwiew.
For me the performance was and is ok.

Today, when I had to decide witch radar dome to buy, I would look witch radar works with OpenCPN and then look witch of theese scanners fits for me. When one of the HALO-scanners work, go with them or buy a 4g witch are maybe "cheap" now

Best regards

Andreas

[Pizzazz]

My experience is with Raymarine 2k, Quantum II and a little bit playing around with Raymarine Super HD. Make no mistake the Super HD is way better than both if you can afford the antenna size and power consumption.

The Quantum II was easier to use but not necessarily significantly better than the Pathfinder 2K. The doppler feature of the Quantum was a gimmick to me, especially since you lose color. The Pathfinder has rock solid MARPA and weather but it is harder to use (you need to adjust the settings more often).

Power consumption is not very different between the Pathfinder 2k at 28W vs. the Quantum II at 17W. The more useful feature is instant on, where you do not have to wait for the magnetron to heat up.

I am also hearing that Halo is the way to go. Also, we have the codes for OpenCPN to support Raymarine radars and that will open up a huge following since there are many used digital radomes on eBay. What the developers have asked for is a C++ programmer with a Raymarine radar to translate these codes into plugin structure. One day it may happen.