Belize 43: Belize 43 Survey

[Bill Brealey]

My Belize is 10 years old now and the surveyor said the rigging is that bullet proof we should get many more years out of it.
Other things to check on survey are; Anchor & Chain, Trampoline, Ropes and we found our Bimini soft top and side clears were stuffed after 10 years and cost us AUD$12,500 to replace so worth a good check.
we love this boat she's a great looker and we get many admiring looks and photographs when we are cruising up the Yarra in Melbourne.

[spiv]

Hi Wayne,

you are in the best place to get all that work done.
I spent a lot of money in Marmaris to get many things built/ modified on my Salina, the only regret is not having done more...
Just make sure you get the right tradesmen, there are some bodgy ones as well.

BTW, I also have been shifting the chain for a couple of years, then I solved the problem by selling my 13mm standard chain and installing 10mm Hi Tensile chain: Half the weight, more tensile strength and so much less volume that it now it doesn't pile up all the way to the windlass.

[AussieWayne]

Hi Stefano
How has the new 10mm chain been working out for you. Is it still performing as desired and not piling up.
Which windlass are you using and did you change your windlass to accommodate the smaller chain?
And I have found Marmaris very expensive to refit a boat and like you have spent a lot of money doing so.
The quality of workmanship seems to be first class though.
AussieWayne

[spiv]

Hi Wayne.
If you think Turkey is expensive, you'll be shocked by the prices in the rest of Europe.
The 10mm HiTest chain works perfectly for us. No more piling up and chain shifting.
I just had to replace the gypsy, I managed to sell the old one on eBay.

Keep smiling
Spiv

[peteatbeach]

Highly recommend Belize owners check your rudder shafts during next haul-out. When we purchased our boat (Delphinus, hull #83) in May 14, the starboard rudder lower bearing needed to be replaced. Upon inspection of the rudder shaft there was some surface corrosion on the shaft about where the shaft exits the lower end of the bearing. Inspection and wire brushing confirmed it appeared to only be surface level.

Fast forward to May 2015. We completed a winter cruise in Bahamas and Fla Keys. When sailing back north from Key West we noticed autopilot was having difficulty keeping consistent course. While in Key Largo I dove to do a routine cleaning of the bottom of the boat I noticed the starboard rudder was gone. This explained the autopilot issues.

On arrival in Ft Lauderdale we removed the remaining shaft part (see photo).
Clearly the corrosion was worse than we expected or accelerated quickly. Having a new rudder manufactured now. Repairs will include replacement of the lower bearing (ball shaped) and collar (aluminum retainer) that appear to have been damaged as well. Port rudder was also removed to make mold for new rudder. No corrosion at all on the shaft.

The contractor had to order the stainless shaft from Europe since an equivalent metric size shaft was not available in the US. Expecting shaft replacement to cost $6500 US; other repairs, haul-out, other delay costs will be more than $3000. Also expect 3-5 weeks to complete.

We double checked bonding and confirmed okay to see if might be boat system related. We also have a galvanic isolator on A/C power. Zincs installed in Jan 15 are also looking good. So not sure what factors at play for shaft corrosion.

Sail and learn....

Pete

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by peteatbeach

Highly recommend Belize owners check your rudder shafts during next haul-out. When we purchased our boat (Delphinus, hull #83) in May 14, the starboard rudder lower bearing needed to be replaced. Upon inspection of the rudder shaft there was some surface corrosion on the shaft about where the shaft exits the lower end of the bearing. Inspection and wire brushing confirmed it appeared to only be surface level.

Fast forward to May 2015. We completed a winter cruise in Bahamas and Fla Keys. When sailing back north from Key West we noticed autopilot was having difficulty keeping consistent course. While in Key Largo I dove to do a routine cleaning of the bottom of the boat I noticed the starboard rudder was gone. This explained the autopilot issues.

On arrival in Ft Lauderdale we removed the remaining shaft part (see photo).
Clearly the corrosion was worse than we expected or accelerated quickly. Having a new rudder manufactured now. Repairs will include replacement of the lower bearing (ball shaped) and collar (aluminum retainer) that appear to have been damaged as well. Port rudder was also removed to make mold for new rudder. No corrosion at all on the shaft.

The contractor had to order the stainless shaft from Europe since an equivalent metric size shaft was not available in the US. Expecting shaft replacement to cost $6500 US; other repairs, haul-out, other delay costs will be more than $3000. Also expect 3-5 weeks to complete.

We double checked bonding and confirmed okay to see if might be boat system related. We also have a galvanic isolator on A/C power. Zincs installed in Jan 15 are also looking good. So not sure what factors at play for shaft corrosion.

Sail and learn....

Pete

OUCH!

BTW, we missed chatting with you in Bimini.....sorry!

Did you get a quote for a new rudder from FP? I got pricing from them on the bearings just a few months ago and the parts list showed the rudder.

I would guess shipping would be very high......

I purchased (4) bearings with the plan to replace on next haul out. We were just out in February and I always check the rudders for side/forward/back play and did not notice any. But at 12 years, I ordered the bearings and will change as preventative maintenance. I will certainly pay close attention to any corrosion. Hopefully your issue isn't systemic with the design or build.

BTW, if you have the FP factory bow sprit (IIRC, Delphinus does not), ours came loose and we almost lost it. The rivets holding the Z brackets on the bottom of the cross beam corroded plus 2 of the 6 didn't have a good hold due to being too close to the access holes on the bottom side of the beam. I did not have a sail on it at time, otherwise I probably would not have noticed it. I'm having new Z brackets made (laser cut and anodized) with the attachment area about twice of the original size and will use probably 10-12 rivets in each.

[colemj]

That seems like a lot of money for just a shaft. Did you consider sourcing cheaper in the US and having just the part going through the bearing turned to fit? Or if you are replacing the bearings, just replace with ones that will fit an imperial shaft?

It is difficult to tell in the picture because it is blurry, but it looks like there is significant pitting on the shaft. Or maybe that is just scale - I can't tell.

I know three Venezia 42's that have snapped their shafts similarly. Were these boats contemporary with the V42?

Mark

[peteatbeach]

Originally Posted by DotDun

OUCH!

BTW, we missed chatting with you in Bimini.....sorry!

Did you get a quote for a new rudder from FP? I got pricing from them on the bearings just a few months ago and the parts list showed the rudder.

I would guess shipping would be very high......

I purchased (4) bearings with the plan to replace on next haul out. We were just out in February and I always check the rudders for side/forward/back play and did not notice any. But at 12 years, I ordered the bearings and will change as preventative maintenance. I will certainly pay close attention to any corrosion. Hopefully your issue isn't systemic with the design or build.

BTW, if you have the FP factory bow sprit (IIRC, Delphinus does not), ours came loose and we almost lost it. The rivets holding the Z brackets on the bottom of the cross beam corroded plus 2 of the 6 didn't have a good hold due to being too close to the access holes on the bottom side of the beam. I did not have a sail on it at time, otherwise I probably would not have noticed it. I'm having new Z brackets made (laser cut and anodized) with the attachment area about twice of the original size and will use probably 10-12 rivets in each.

Dot,

Hope we get another opportunity to catch up again in the future. We did get a chance to visit Dragonfly, the other Belize Maestro in Bimini that night. They are original owners and have done a lot of updates, modifications.

The ball shaped bearing is removable from the aluminum collar/retainer. This is an easy change out even if doing bottom and top bearing. However, the collar is epoxied into the hull and upper shaft tube. I replaced the lower collars on both sides last haul out because the starboard one showed some pitting. Removing the collar meant they had to be cut out, and the new collar epoxied back into the hull. I checked the uppers and they looked fine.

I was not aware that FP had a part number for a replacement rudder. Would you please send me the parts list that you received from FP? Thanks.

I think I have a different bow sprit than you. The one on the Delphinus is an aluminum tube about 8" in diameter. I've attached a few pictures for information. I presume this is after-market as I've not seen anything like it. It's installation is slightly off center, but hasn't really impacted use of functionality. I will check the connection to the cross bar though.

Pete

[peteatbeach]

Mark,

I didn't look into replacement with a non-metric size shaft. There is a significant amount of additional metal work to be done event if a different size shaft was used. The tiller would also need modifications. The shaft tube built into the boat has upper and lower collars/bearings, which would also need to be changed. Not sure what other changes would be necessary. interesting option though.

The cost that I indicated was for a complete rudder replacement and installation of new lower collar and bearing, painting with copper coat epoxy to match the hull, as well as additional spares.

Pete

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by peteatbeach

Highly recommend Belize owners check your rudder shafts during next haul-out. When we purchased our boat (Delphinus, hull #83) in May 14, the starboard rudder lower bearing needed to be replaced. Upon inspection of the rudder shaft there was some surface corrosion on the shaft about where the shaft exits the lower end of the bearing. Inspection and wire brushing confirmed it appeared to only be surface level.

Fast forward to May 2015. We completed a winter cruise in Bahamas and Fla Keys. When sailing back north from Key West we noticed autopilot was having difficulty keeping consistent course. While in Key Largo I dove to do a routine cleaning of the bottom of the boat I noticed the starboard rudder was gone. This explained the autopilot issues.

On arrival in Ft Lauderdale we removed the remaining shaft part (see photo).
Clearly the corrosion was worse than we expected or accelerated quickly. Having a new rudder manufactured now. Repairs will include replacement of the lower bearing (ball shaped) and collar (aluminum retainer) that appear to have been damaged as well. Port rudder was also removed to make mold for new rudder. No corrosion at all on the shaft.

The contractor had to order the stainless shaft from Europe since an equivalent metric size shaft was not available in the US. Expecting shaft replacement to cost $6500 US; other repairs, haul-out, other delay costs will be more than $3000. Also expect 3-5 weeks to complete.

We double checked bonding and confirmed okay to see if might be boat system related. We also have a galvanic isolator on A/C power. Zincs installed in Jan 15 are also looking good. So not sure what factors at play for shaft corrosion.

Sail and learn....

Pete

BTW, the bearings are 34mm...hence that is the diameter of the shaft (one has to assume).

Also, the rudder system is not grounded to battery/power/thru hulls........have to think about the ramifications of that. I wonder if the rudder could be affected by stray current in a marina........??

[StuM]

Originally Posted by peteatbeach

Dot,

I think I have a different bow sprit than you. The one on the Delphinus is an aluminum tube about 8" in diameter. I've attached a few pictures for information. I presume this is after-market as I've not seen anything like it. It's installation is slightly off center, but hasn't really impacted use of functionality. I will check the connection to the cross bar though.

Pete

That's the same as ours. And has the same problem that we had from the looks of it. The fore/aft panel that it is mounted on has bent.

We cut it out and glassed in a heavier panel before bringing it up from Brisbane.

[dmtparkerLcsk53]

Originally Posted by peteatbeach

Highly recommend Belize owners check your rudder shafts during next haul-out. When we purchased our boat (Delphinus, hull #83) in May 14, the starboard rudder lower bearing needed to be replaced. Upon inspection of the rudder shaft there was some surface corrosion on the shaft about where the shaft exits the lower end of the bearing. Inspection and wire brushing confirmed it appeared to only be surface level.

Fast forward to May 2015. We completed a winter cruise in Bahamas and Fla Keys. When sailing back north from Key West we noticed autopilot was having difficulty keeping consistent course. While in Key Largo I dove to do a routine cleaning of the bottom of the boat I noticed the starboard rudder was gone. This explained the autopilot issues.

Pete

I have a 2004 F-P Belize 43. On our return from Cuba this summer, I thought the auto-pilot was having a very hard time, but we were in heavy quartering seas on the port stern and it is an old autopilot wihtout the newer 'smart' technology. Then while at our dock in Panama, we suffered a lightning strike that wiped out most of the electronics. After re-fitting most everything, we went out for a sea trial to set-up the auto pilot. It failed with a "MOT STALL" error which I'm guessing means the drive unit is toast, but that is a different problem. When I went in the water to clean the hull, I found the stbd rudder gone - just like you. I have a stub of shaft ~5" long sticking down from the hull that has marine growth on it, so it has been a while. The shaft has what looks like a 3/8" hole through it (but probably metric). Do you know how the rudder is attached to the shaft? How did your repair work out? Do you have the part number for a new rudder from F-P? or a link to where I could find one? How long did you sail with one rudder? I have at least 100nm to get to a haul-out. Anything that might help would be appreciated!!

[Dragon Lady]

Hi all, I believe is issue is called "crevice corrosion" and is caused when a small area of the shaft is exposed to running water. It seems to prevalent on this era of FP cats. There have been several reports of this happing previously along with all the rudder bearings issues. If you are sourcing a replacement shaft in the states you might be better sleeving up an imperial shaft or getting imperial sized bearing made. You could even bore the factory bearings up to the imperial size which I guess would be 38mm or 1 1/2 inch. Hope this helps and good luck with your repairs.

[peteatbeach]

I feel your pain...I don't have a part number, but I did hear that you can order one from FP. Someone like DOTDUN might be able to help.

We used Just Cats in Ft Lauderdale to manufacture a new rudder. They used the remaining rudder to create a mold for the new one. Biggest issue was getting the SS shaft from France. Total time for repair approx 6 weeks. You might contact them to see if they still have the mold. Catamaran and yacht services | JUST CATAMARANS Tel: 954-589-2343
Email: service@justcatamarans.net. Cost was around $5K to manufacture and additional $500 for new lower bearing set.

I don't know what the internal structure of the rudder looks like, and a drilled hole at that location is rather strange. Does the hole had wear or chafing?

We traveled about about 100nm without the rudder. A little more difficult to control, but as you already know it can be done.

Best wishes

Pete

[dmtparkerLcsk53]

I'm thinking of trying to get a local welder to create some type of structure to build a new rudder on using the 'stump' as it has all the bearing surfaces intact. Then get a fiberglass guy to duplicate the 'good' rudder around that structure. You don't remember what the internal structure of your looked like, do you?