Mahe 36: Heads

[Jef & Marin, Netherlands]

I once unblocked the outlet by putting a water hose in the through-hull and opening the tap.
The hose had to be thickened by another piece of hose around it and some layers of tape to get the diameter right.
You can reach the through-hull through the escape hatch, no need to do complicated things with dinghies.

If the hoses are partly blocked this is a great moment to replace the hoses with anti-odour non-smelly hose. In our Mahe this made a clear difference to the smell; we both have a sensitive nose

[Cotemar]

If the hoses are calcified, then a wire snake is the only thing that is going to open the hose up a bit to drain the tank.
A wire snake may not be able to make the corner in the valve if done from outside.
You may have to get 3 five gallon buckets and pull the hose before the valve and do this from inside the head.
Tape yourself a plastic shoot from the hull to outside of the cabinet, so as not to get any sewage down in your bilge.

If your going to replace the hoses then you may want to start here, using the foil tape method.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1377635

[Tootsie]

Originally Posted by DtM

Why do you want to convert to fresh water flush?

Cotemar has elsewhere in this thread commented that the urine transforms the seawater salt into Calcium deposits, which will eventually clog the system. I guess this is one damn good reason to rebuild for fresh water flushing.
The less time spent on your knees in that room, the better.

My system on one side of my Lipari is clogged and I can't figure out what it is. Once I start pumping, the joker valve turns backwards due to the created pressure while trying to pump. Hoses are changed, and they had a thick layer of calcium. I have tried to find possible deposits in the bottom inlet nozzle of the tank, but I can only get a tool some 10 inches up the nozzle, then it stops. It's also very difficult to get access to even get anything stiff up the nozzle. I do not know if there is a bend inside the tank or not stopping the tool.
Anyway, I am considering to buy the Jabsco Lite Flush toilet. Maybe I should convert it to a fresh water system?

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by Tootsie

Cotemar has elsewhere in this thread commented that the urine transforms the seawater salt into Calcium deposits, which will eventually clog the system. I guess this is one damn good reason to rebuild for fresh water flushing.
The less time spent on your knees in that room, the better.

Anyway, I am considering to buy the Jabsco Lite Flush toilet. Maybe I should convert it to a fresh water system?

We have been using fresh water to flush the toilets for five years now. We just pull the hose from the sink to flush. No new plumbing.

We changed our hoses after five years and the hoses were clean inside with no deposits.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Tootsie

Cotemar has elsewhere in this thread commented that the urine transforms the seawater salt into Calcium deposits, which will eventually clog the system. I guess this is one damn good reason to rebuild for fresh water flushing.
The less time spent on your knees in that room, the better.

My system on one side of my Lipari is clogged and I can't figure out what it is. Once I start pumping, the joker valve turns backwards due to the created pressure while trying to pump. Hoses are changed, and they had a thick layer of calcium. I have tried to find possible deposits in the bottom inlet nozzle of the tank, but I can only get a tool some 10 inches up the nozzle, then it stops. It's also very difficult to get access to even get anything stiff up the nozzle. I do not know if there is a bend inside the tank or not stopping the tool.
Anyway, I am considering to buy the Jabsco Lite Flush toilet. Maybe I should convert it to a fresh water system?

Joker valve turns backwards???? That's sounds impossible. On the up stroke of the pump the foot valve opens and suction pulls from the bowl. At this point the joker valve is closed and seals itself. The only way the joker valve could turn backwards (if that's even possible) is for that foot valve to be completely sealed and blocked. Are all the parts installed correctly???

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Tootsie

My system on one side of my Lipari is clogged and I can't figure out what it is. Once I start pumping, the joker valve turns backwards due to the created pressure while trying to pump.

This does not sound like a clog in the hose to the tank. It sounds like the clog is between the pump and the bowl or the pump is malfunctioning. The pump is trying to suck from the bowl but that path may be clogged. The suction is so high that it inverts the joker valve (and probably another valve inside the pump). Most commonly this is caused by someone discarding something they should not have flushed. Find what is clogging the path from the bowl to the pump and remove it. You may have to rebuild the pump with new valves if any were damaged.

Then post the famous sign near the head that all other plumbers at sea have posted. Nothing goes into the bowl unless you ate or drank it first.

[Seastream]

All:

This isn't the most eloquent description of a process but the best I could do for now.

I replaced the three main head hoses (toilet to tank, tank to thru hull discharge, breather to thru hull discharge) today. It took a total of about three hours. Parts: breather hose, 1 inch dia ($3.50/ft). Tank outlet to thru hull & toilet to tank inlet: 1.5 inch dia ($4.25/ft). 20 1.5 inch hose clamps, 10 1 inch hose clamps. I measured and overbought 28 ft of the 1.5 inch hose and 12 ft of the 1 inch from a local marine hdwr store so I could do both heads. Tools: large long shank standard and phillips screw drivers, socket wrench, utility knife, WD-40, hair dryer. Here's how:

Remove everything from the head room. Remove the tank cover and sink door. Fill and pump out the tank 3-4 times with the dockside pumpout. Put a plastic bucket underneath the discharge thru hull to catch any effluent upon hose removal.

In order, I removed and replaced the breather hose, tank to thru hull discharge, and toilet to tank inlet in this manner: Remove all hose clamps. Carefully cut into the hoses where they're on the various nipple fittings and squirt some WD-40 into where the hoses fit on the nipples to aid removal. The FP 1.5 inch hoses are wire reinforced; don't try to cut thru the wire. Heat the hose to nipple junctions and use the standard screw driver to spread the hose to aid in slipping the hose off. Take care not to snap any of the fittings off during all of this. Discard the hoses.

Remove the head pump from its' base. FP silicones the seawater intake and toilet to tank hoses in place; remove the silicone so you can lift the pump up and disconnect the toilet to tank hose. I didn't resilicone them.

To replace the toilet to tank hose, it was easiest to take the hose end and feed it down thru the hole next to the base of the toilet, pull it towards the sink, then up thru the counter hole to the top of the tank, attaching it to the tank inlet nipple. Cut the hose at the toilet end leaving enough to attach it to the joker valve fitting. Attach the pump to it and remount the pump to its base, it's easier that way. The tank outlet to thru hull can be measured, precut and installed BUT it's difficult to keep the tank base hose clamps from sliding down the hose and thru the counter holes so be aware. The breather hose can be precut as well. For the breather, it's easier to remove the right angle nipple on the threaded thru hull, install it on the hose, then reinstall it on the thru hull. Scrub the whole head room down with a Clorox solution and rinse well. NOTE: After all was done, the tank still wouldn't always drain properly. Further investigation proved that in addition to the clogged hoses, years of sludge (toilet paper, whatever) was blocking the tank drain. Further flush/fill sessions were required to remove all the blockage. I'm considering installing Y valves to provide an emergency tank bypass to allow flushing directly overboard should the tank ever block again. Pix are below.

[Rufduck]

Really appreciate the collective wisdom.

Cotemar posted some excellent pictures in post #10 of behind the holding tank cover.

Mine is ...different. It has an large fitting in line on the waste delivery hose. It appears to act as a reducer from the 1.5 inch inlet to the tank to the 1 inch delivery hose from the toilet, TMC electric. However, it is over a foot long and has no less than 8 clamps.
Am trying to include a picture but am having some trouble. It is vertical not horizontal.

If it serves some purpose, fine. If not, will replace it with a simple reducer.
After closer inspection, the reducer is already there. it almost looks like the installer didn't have a piece of 1.5 hose that was long enough and cobbled together the pieces to fit.

Am overhauling both heads as within a year both waste impellers broke. Replaced pumps and now I can't seem to get the flapper valves to seal (no joker valve). Out of frustration, I may replace one with a Jabsco electric as I just happen to have one on hand.

The other issue is that the waste flow from both heads is less than the inflow volume of flush water. I.e., the bowl doesn't empty. Will try partially closing the thru hull valve but that seems crude.
Is there any kind of balance mechanism that I'm missing?

Cheers

[transmitterdan]

It's likely that the waste hoses are clogged with solid material that forms from salt water and urine. Search here for solutions that dissolve the gunk. Muriatic acid in the right concentration will dissolve it.

The "device" in your like appears to be a non-return valve.

[transmitterdan]

Line not like....

[Rufduck]

I thought about an anti siphon/backflow valve but presumably the waste hose to the tank discharges into the top, so why the need?
OR
Does it discharge into the top of the tank? Discharge into the bottom could prevent the accumulation of solids.

Shucks. All decorated for Christmas so can't easily move to a pump out. This could become sooo messy sooo fast.

Thanks again for the help, all.

Cheers

[transmitterdan]

It's possible someone thought that a non-return valve might help in case the tank gets over filled. Without a piping diagram it's hard to say why it's there.

Most but not all systems empty from the head into the top of the holding tank. I am at times amazed at the variety of plumbing configurations found on boats.

[Rufduck]

Thanks. The waste enters on the forward side of the tank about 1.5 inches down from the top. I don't know if there is a down tube inside the tank from the inlet but I'm sure I'll find out tomorrow.
Really appreciate the thinking exercise because it has answered all the symptoms. I just went straight to the toilet as the cause but now believe it is somewhere in the waste to tank line.
Will post what I find.

Cheers

[MikeFergie]

I like my plexiglass shower doors in my Leopard cat. Keep all the mess in the shower cubical not messing the rest of the head. I think that a hand extension shower is just such a compromise on an expensive boat

[Rufduck]

Transmitterdan nailed it spot on.
The big fitting is a huge joker valve.
The waste dumps directly to tank, no drop tube so that valve never carried much head.
Installing the 1" waste hose is crippling but when I enlarged the holes through the liner by a quarter inch, success.
All the waste hose and fittings were plated with the hard urine salts mentioned. Scraping was a waste of time but conservative whacks with a hammer cleaned them nicely. No offensive odors.
The minimum opening had scaled up to a quarter inch hole.
Time about four hours. Toilet flushes nicely.
Now for the port one.
Thanks again.