Lavezzi 40: Lavezzi 40 issues

[lyleh]

Looking at purchasing a 2009 FP Lavezzi 40. Apparently the hull has had the osmosis treatment done. What other issues should I be looking for specific to the Lavezzi?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by lyleh

Looking at purchasing a 2009 FP Lavezzi 40. Apparently the hull has had the osmosis treatment done. What other issues should I be looking for specific to the Lavezzi?

How was the osmosis treatment done? Fotos before, while and after treatment and list of all materials used available? The problem is the gelcoat is worst ever available and defective sucking in water so underwatership need to be striped completely to bare fibreglass, left min 3 month drying, then minimum 1 layer of mats with epoxy or venylester resin on both hulls to seal the polyester resin that sucks in water too... This procedure is rarely done like this but needed... If not striped completely you will need to do it in a couple of years again as osmosis comes back.

Other issues: to check take all floorboards out.
1)all bulkheads are only glued in with glue hard like porcelain but Lavezzi is a very light construction that flexes to absorb rough hits...check all bulkheads by slight knocks with a small hammer if they are still attached/glued properly to the hull. how thick is the glue used?
2)check the whole inner interior form parts, especially in the heads is properly glue to the hull
They like to separate.. Mostly in combination with 1....bulkheads gone force goes onto these connections
3) check rudder posts and bearings, they like to size in place as aluminium tubes meet stainless rudder posts
4)front crossbeam, check the washers inside in the bow storage compartments. These washers that hold the crossbeam to the hulls are by far too small and over time work themselves into she fibreglass. Here you can see how and how much/heavy the cat was really used. Completely visible washers with the edge of washer still on top of fiberglass=slight and occasional costal use, washers only surface visible= uesd regularly and also offshore, washers in fibreglass and stresscracks=heavy offshore and charter use. These washers need to be replaced by as big as possible stainless counterplates to spread the loads on more surface.
5)anker windlass base: can rot due to water ingress or base of alu windlass is corroded away as the rubber seal around the base that should seal it collects sea water that stays there.
6)electric: main fuse missing in STB engine room?
7)sliding cockpit door really sliding, lightly opening?
8) emergency hatches working and are water tight=> sea trial, go on purpose straight into wave so they slam on bridgedeck.... Check if the window still properly glued to frame, how old are the seals? They tend to leak and window seperating from the frame...
9)gelcoat blisters above waterline/on whole boatabove water gelcoat.... A few like 20 max are normal, more then a few run away....
10)stress cracks bridgedeck to hull, slight cracks around 20cm are normal, bigger and 40cm + means your bulkheads are broken, see 1)
11) mast post:check for stress cracks and corrosion.. If there are some check bulkheads and rigg, mostly overtighteend side stays and heavy use...
12)check the front big windows: condition, UV cracks? These are freaking expensive, need permanent protection to last long
13) front hatches leaking =>sea trial, head into waves and bury bows under water...
14)sized genua furler
15) maestro version:check in stb if keel is supported by two half bulkheads on height where emergency hatches are... On mine the factory simply forgot them...

[CaptainRivet]

On Lavezzi in first place its actually not osmosis, the gelcoat is the problem as this sucks water in like a sponge. After some time this water then creates osmosis like bubbles between gelcoat and the gray finishing layer of the fibreglass below.. Its like a thick spray primer to even surface between gelcoat and fibreglass which is the real problem and partly seperates from the hull and fills this pockets with water. Only then these spots start to get osmosis on the first layer from outside to inside. So you can very well and permanently repair that but need to really get underwatership first to bare fibreglass.
On mine we had readings between 30 and 50, after that junk was completely sandblasted away to bare fibreglass without any drying i was down to 3-5%. On some spots there was slight beginning osmosis in the first layer of fibreglass and it was where there was a layer of epoxy primer (assume was a repair of some scratches) encapsulating this "mixture".
The classic way to repair from FP is to sand out these bubbles to bare fibreglass, then dry out and patch this "holes" with in best case fibreglass patches, mostly they use just epoxy putty. And then over this several layers of epoxy primer to seal she surface. Like this you encapsulate this wet gelcoat/finishing layer and osmosis will really start off between gray layer and fibreglass below.
That was suggested to me too by FP and the boatyard but luckly my trusted surveyor told me to do it once and right by sandblasting all away and rebuild new so whatever creates the problem is gone... As I saved 3 month drying it was cheaper in the end and its permanently repaired.
I also used shis opportunity to reinforce cat and the underwatership so on bare fibreglass we put 2-5layers of 450 mat with venylester resin. Especially inside facing part of the hull around the emergency hatch 2m to bow and stern is very thin. Here we put 5 mats overlaying each other and also laminated the keels. We used 160l of resin in total. This is so this area is 300% more stable to be able to safely beach the cat. We saw a lot stress cracks in these areas after sandblasting as this cat was from a french owner(who hardly used it) where the cat fell regularly dry tue to high tides in his home port.

[redneckrob]

Keep in mind that sailboats don't often sink from osmosis. In fact I'm not aware of a single case. If you get the boat you want at the price you want, just ignore the osmosis. Otherwise you'll run yourself in circles with worry about a non-issue or even worse spend tens of thousands on the unnecessary "treatments" all the armchair osmosis experts prescribe without ever stopping to address if they're even necessary in the first place.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Keep in mind that sailboats don't often sink from osmosis. In fact I'm not aware of a single case. If you get the boat you want at the price you want, just ignore the osmosis. Otherwise you'll run yourself in circles with worry about a non-issue or even worse spend tens of thousands on the unnecessary "treatments" all the armchair osmosis experts prescribe without ever stopping to address if they're even necessary in the first place.

Ignoring it on Lavezzi will be fatal as this is serious and structual issues will appear soon.

On Lavezzi it is very necessary and the hull is very thin, especially in the area around the emergency hatches its only 5mm massive fibreglass.
We catched mine kinda last minute before the problem would get serious. And because its so thin and the material used is on the poor side it will cause structural issues soon...confirmed by 2 surveyors and my repairer. We already found a delamination around the rear main bulkhead with IR scan, cut out the area of 30x30cm and this already comprimised the structure.
The good is that its foam core till waterline and the foam is clustered in 3x3cm squares that are separated by resin to connect in- and outside of the hull.
Its a production mistake of bad gelcoat, this finishing layer and the low quality polyester resin is a very unlucky chain of problems that will get a big issue if not treated right.

My old ketch had a bit osmosis too but hull was 5cm thick so I gave a f.... about the osmosis. But on Lavezzi its fatal if not tretaed right.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

On Lavezzi in first place its actually not osmosis, the gelcoat is the problem as this sucks water in like a sponge. After some time this water then creates osmosis like bubbles between gelcoat and the gray finishing layer of the fibreglass below.. Its like a thick spray primer to even surface between gelcoat and fibreglass which is the real problem and partly seperates from the hull and fills this pockets with water. Only then these spots start to get osmosis on the first layer from outside to inside. So you can very well and permanently repair that but need to really get underwatership first to bare fibreglass.
On mine we had readings between 30 and 50, after that junk was completely sandblasted away to bare fibreglass without any drying i was down to 3-5%. On some spots there was slight beginning osmosis in the first layer of fibreglass and it was where there was a layer of epoxy primer (assume was a repair of some scratches) encapsulating this "mixture".
The classic way to repair from FP is to sand out these bubbles to bare fibreglass, then dry out and patch this "holes" with in best case fibreglass patches, mostly they use just epoxy putty. And then over this several layers of epoxy primer to seal she surface. Like this you encapsulate this wet gelcoat/finishing layer and osmosis will really start off between gray layer and fibreglass below.
That was suggested to me too by FP and the boatyard but luckly my trusted surveyor told me to do it once and right by sandblasting all away and rebuild new so whatever creates the problem is gone... As I saved 3 month drying it was cheaper in the end and its permanently repaired.
I also used shis opportunity to reinforce cat and the underwatership so on bare fibreglass we put 2-5layers of 450 mat with venylester resin. Especially inside facing part of the hull around the emergency hatch 2m to bow and stern is very thin. Here we put 5 mats overlaying each other and also laminated the keels. We used 160l of resin in total. This is so this area is 300% more stable to be able to safely beach the cat. We saw a lot stress cracks in these areas after sandblasting as this cat was from a french owner(who hardly used it) where the cat fell regularly dry tue to high tides in his home port.

Binelester resin on outside of the hull was used, inside to repair the bulkhiads epoxy resin.

[lyleh]

Thank you. That is valuable information. I will be conducting a sea trial and survey in the next week and your information will certainly help me. The osmosis repair was done in 2018 so I should be able to see if there is any reoccurrence. I will ask the broker if he can get me photos from the repair from the seller.

[lyleh]

Boat came through the survey quite well as it has never been chartered and lightly used. Osmosis treatment was done 6 years ago and is holding up well. Rudder bearings are due to be changed and I am reinforcing the front crossbeam washers with a metal backing plate. Very little sign of any separation in any bulkheads and no cracking around the mast base. Thank you again for the input- really helped during the survey.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by lyleh

Boat came through the survey quite well as it has never been chartered and lightly used. Osmosis treatment was done 6 years ago and is holding up well. Rudder bearings are due to be changed and I am reinforcing the front crossbeam washers with a metal backing plate. Very little sign of any separation in any bulkheads and no cracking around the mast base. Thank you again for the input- really helped during the survey.

Happy to hear and congrats

Can I ask you how much you paid or will pay for it? Owners version?

[lyleh]

It is an owners version. Asking price was $169,000 Euros

[CaptainRivet]

With VAT... Thats cheap if with and in decent condition.

[Wilyum]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

How was the osmosis treatment done? Fotos before, while and after treatment and list of all materials used available? The problem is the gelcoat is worst ever available and defective sucking in water so underwatership need to be striped completely to bare fibreglass, left min 3 month drying, then minimum 1 layer of mats with epoxy or venylester resin on both hulls to seal the polyester resin that sucks in water too... This procedure is rarely done like this but needed... If not striped completely you will need to do it in a couple of years again as osmosis comes back.

Other issues: to check take all floorboards out.
1)all bulkheads are only glued in with glue hard like porcelain but Lavezzi is a very light construction that flexes to absorb rough hits...check all bulkheads by slight knocks with a small hammer if they are still attached/glued properly to the hull. how thick is the glue used?
2)check the whole inner interior form parts, especially in the heads is properly glue to the hull
They like to separate.. Mostly in combination with 1....bulkheads gone force goes onto these connections
3) check rudder posts and bearings, they like to size in place as aluminium tubes meet stainless rudder posts
4)front crossbeam, check the washers inside in the bow storage compartments. These washers that hold the crossbeam to the hulls are by far too small and over time work themselves into she fibreglass. Here you can see how and how much/heavy the cat was really used. Completely visible washers with the edge of washer still on top of fiberglass=slight and occasional costal use, washers only surface visible= uesd regularly and also offshore, washers in fibreglass and stresscracks=heavy offshore and charter use. These washers need to be replaced by as big as possible stainless counterplates to spread the loads on more surface.
5)anker windlass base: can rot due to water ingress or base of alu windlass is corroded away as the rubber seal around the base that should seal it collects sea water that stays there.
6)electric: main fuse missing in STB engine room?
7)sliding cockpit door really sliding, lightly opening?
8) emergency hatches working and are water tight=> sea trial, go on purpose straight into wave so they slam on bridgedeck.... Check if the window still properly glued to frame, how old are the seals? They tend to leak and window seperating from the frame...
9)gelcoat blisters above waterline/on whole boatabove water gelcoat.... A few like 20 max are normal, more then a few run away....
10)stress cracks bridgedeck to hull, slight cracks around 20cm are normal, bigger and 40cm + means your bulkheads are broken, see 1)
11) mast post:check for stress cracks and corrosion.. If there are some check bulkheads and rigg, mostly overtighteend side stays and heavy use...
12)check the front big windows: condition, UV cracks? These are freaking expensive, need permanent protection to last long
13) front hatches leaking =>sea trial, head into waves and bury bows under water...
14)sized genua furler
15) maestro version:check in stb if keel is supported by two half bulkheads on height where emergency hatches are... On mine the factory simply forgot them...

Are all FP bulkheads glued in or just the Lavezzi model?

[CaptainRivet]

you can expect all FP from that generation have glued bulkheads, Lagoon too. That's how the french mass cats are generally build.
only the main bulkheads are partly laminated from one side.
the difference is that Lavezzi is only 6.2t for a 40ft and in general lightly build foam core cat on performance side and has to twisting a bit more then the 9t Lagoon 38 balsa cored to fight the forces which puts more stress on the bulkheads. Well twisting and hard like porcelain glue are not really a good combination. laminate the bulkheads from both sides generously to the hull and all is sorted, as corner laminate can dynamically move with while glue can't.