420: Lavezzi Reefing Levels

[Dragon Lady]

Hi I was just wondering if the reefing levels are the same for charter boats as the private boats?
My boat has charter manuals and the reefing levels seem a bit lower than what I was told by someone else who gave me a rundown on another Lavezzi.
I know you should always follow the manufacturers recommendation, but I was just wondering if they dumb it down for the charter operators?
My boat feels very stable and there is no signs of any straining in the rig when the wind gets up to and above the winds speeds quoted in the manual, which I have been told is not the case with some other brands of cats.
So does anyone have a copy of the non charter owners manual so that I can compare?

[DtM]

What "levels' do the factory propose?

I would have thought that the charter company rather than the factory would have lower sugggested levels.

We recently had the Orana in 40 knots reaching with one reef in the main and half a headsail in complete control doing 15 knots. The mainsheet was in hand but never needed easing.

[Dragon Lady]

Wow, downwind the book says 1st reef 18kts, 2nd reef 22kts, 3rd 28kts.
A guy told me Lavezzis don't need a reef under 20kts, maybe he's right?
Mind you we put a 2nd reef in at about 25kts and the boat didn't go any slower.
I guess the amount of weight you have onboard makes a difference too.

[careka]

If you push the limits, then you must be prepaird to let go on the ropes FAST, if the hull lifts.
Clutch always full open, rope from around the winch ends up on "stoppers",
so all you need to do is to snapp it loos and you have the rope running free, and de power the main and genoa, fast.
pictures are from a Danish boat,(Havhunden) but show how it can be done.

[DtM]

Take a turn off the winch, open the clutch and anticipate. Helmsperson talking to the sheet trimmer.

Often it is a different wave that can cause the problem by lifting the windward hull at the wrong moment. The key is anticipation by the helmsman and driving the boat away in the gusts which puts the wave more on the quarter than abeam.

I should say that the result of our long high speed reach was that we ended up 18 miles off shore and had to drop the main and close reach in to make our anchorage. Still the smiles seemed to indicate it was worth it.

Truthfully, I think a second reef would have been the preferred rig but in my opinion there was never a risk. The increase from 25 to 40 knots was pretty sudden although once it settled in it was a considered decision not to put in a further reef.

[Kiwikat]

Originally Posted by Dragon Lady

Wow, downwind the book says 1st reef 18kts, 2nd reef 22kts, 3rd 28kts.
A guy told me Lavezzis don't need a reef under 20kts, maybe he's right?
Mind you we put a 2nd reef in at about 25kts and the boat didn't go any slower.
I guess the amount of weight you have onboard makes a difference too.

DL our Bahia manual states exactly the same as you have here - The boat was originally commissioned by private individual - never chartered. We have sailed on a skippered charter Bahia in the Whitsunday's in 30 knots with 1 reef in the main and a small wind in on the headsail.
I feel sure the reccommendations are for dummies (the lowest common denominator) and to cover FP's butt if all else fails . The second owner of the boat (from whom we purchased) told us 1st reef at 20 knots, 3rd reef after 30 knots and never to bother with the 2nd. Well, we are still learning the boat and often use the 2nd reef. It just feels more controlled and shows little if at all loss in speed.

Cheers

[jglauds]

wow -- 40 knots on a single reef ... i would not feel ok with my orana in anything like that ... can't really release main without slamming boom against stays, and possibility of mainsheet twisting and failing to run cleanly thru jam cleat is pretty high ...

zero margin of error in a wayward swell ...

glad all's well ... that ends well!

[DotDun]

FWIW.....

I've been playing with various points of sail and reefing and I'm beginning to figure out that reefing early can actually increase speed. I realize I have a different boat (FP Belize) and every boat has it's own characteristics, then add current load, point of sail, etc.

Last week we were on a beam reach in variable winds of 15-20kts. I put a reef in both main and genoa and was averaging 10.5kts and saw 11.7kts at one point. I don't believe I could have got those speeds with full sails up. I've also experienced triple reefed main and genoa with 25kts on the beam averaging more than hull speed.

It makes me wonder if in order to exceed hull speed one should not be burying the lee hull in the water with too much sail.

Anyone else seen this phenomenon?

[Dragon Lady]

Yes I agree, drag or reducing it is one of the biggest factors in getting a boats speed to increase.
I have started furling my genoa going to windward, not only does it reduce drag but it also allows you to move the car forward which brings it inboard as well.
This improves the sheeting angle, which I'm sure is no acident.
Reefing the main not only reduces the drag from burrying the hull but it also reduces the drag on the sails especially if they are eased a bit.
And let's face it the factory sails arn't the best shape, still it's good fun trying to get them into a resonable shape LOL.

As for not being reefed down to the third point in 40kts, I don't think I could do that even being used to an Etchells which has no reefing.

[Le Doume]

Originally Posted by Dragon Lady

Wow, downwind the book says 1st reef 18kts, 2nd reef 22kts, 3rd 28kts.
A guy told me Lavezzis don't need a reef under 20kts, maybe he's right?
Mind you we put a 2nd reef in at about 25kts and the boat didn't go any slower.
I guess the amount of weight you have onboard makes a difference too.

One has to keep in mind that the factory have to be ' cautious" hence conservative with their " recommendations" . I have personally sailed our Lavezzi with 22 to 25 knots ( wind angle 65 to 70 ) with the full main on and took the first reef in once it started gusting to 28 . We had , as we often do , the genoa sheet on the block normally used for the screecher ( out of the car normally used ) which does open the angle of operation of the sail and makes it easier to trim .
Cheers

[Eleven]

Apply seamanship. If the boat doesn't slow much when you reef then you reefed too late and stressed the rig too much. If it doesn't slow at all then you were damn lucky you didn't get a downdraught.
That said you've done far more than I ever will already, I'm left wondering why you asked?

[Le Doume]

Originally Posted by Eleven

Apply seamanship. If the boat doesn't slow much when you reef then you reefed too late and stressed the rig too much. If it doesn't slow at all then you were damn lucky you didn't get a downdraught.
That said you've done far more than I ever will already, I'm left wondering why you asked?

Dear Eleven

Thank you for your input , however this forum is dedicated to Actual and present catamaran owners , the great thing about this forum is that Fountaine pajot owners can exchange views and ask relevant questions , so you can stop wondering , there was a good reason for the question being asked , you may wish to join a forum dedicated to monohulls , I am sure that it will be a lot more interesting for you .
Have a great sailing day

Cheers

[careka]

If you like, you can have a ship/boat designer calculate how much wind your boat can handel befor one hull start lifting.
i know the numbers for my Lagoon 380, but i dont want to put it out here on the net.
Thats one way to do it.
But why push it so hard if you dont need to.

[ShaunJ]

Originally Posted by Le Doume

Dear Eleven

Thank you for your input , however this forum is dedicated to Actual and present catamaran owners , the great thing about this forum is that Fountaine pajot owners can exchange views and ask relevant questions , so you can stop wondering , there was a good reason for the question being asked , you may wish to join a forum dedicated to monohulls , I am sure that it will be a lot more interesting for you .
Have a great sailing day

Cheers

lE dOUME, Where exactly does it say Mono's can not post here?

[Dragon Lady]

Guys the problem with this forum is that when you make a post it goes out to the generic area where all the latest post are.
What I am asking here is about a specific boat and the nuances of getting the best out of that particular design.
It is not that we don't want your opinions or experience it's just that we are talking about a specific boat.
Generalization about mono hulls and seaman is not the topic on this actual thread.
Le Dome like myself is a racer who owns a Lavezzi 40 and likes to get the most out of his cat.
The forum administrator has kindly given us a section to talk about the specific issues relating to our cats, so please respect our little corner of this forum.
You're are most welcome here, but be a bit more considerate before you make a post criticizing people talking about specific subject.