General Info: Sportiest FP 41-46

[Flows]

Hello folks, QQ,

Which of the FPs in the 41 - 46ft range are the most lively to sail and have the best light air and upwind performance?

[Flows]

Lets say from Lapari to Casamance. Understood that the Lapari is not 41ft.

[Rapanui]

Just look at the numbers, sail area displacement and displacement length ratios or to simplify just displacement.
So in order fast to slow: ~44 ft
Belize
Orana
Helia
Or to simplify further the oldest designs are fastest because they are lighter

[Flows]

All understood, are there any pleasant or vice versa surprises in this range? In other words boats that sail better than zoomed out numbers would suggest, or platforms that had potential but if only they had done x or y and say with a few sail plan or rudder foil shape mods would be set free so to speak. There is also the subjective feel of a fine sailing vessel that is hard to quantify but you know it when you feel it.

Do any of these stand out in the "feels good" or "has potential" categories?

Does this look like a fair order or does the Lapari deserve better?

Casamance
Belize
Orana
Helia
Lapari

[Snore]

I have run all the FPs, many of the Lagoons and a few other models. The phrase "sporty catamaran" is an oxymoron. For an objective analysis, look at the polar diagrams of the boats.

None have good sheeting angles when AWA>110 or 120. To get them going you really need a snatch block to the beam cleat to open up the jib. Some guys use a-syms, etcetera. These can add to speed, but on a long run can create havoc.

When the AWA<80, performance tanks.

Like I said download and study the polars. That will provide solid, objective data.

[Flows]

Cheers Snore, you will have had tones of first hand experience by the sounds.

Almost all of my Multi experience has been racing. Some boats I managed to tweak and radically 'unlock' others I hit tuning brick walls due to various design hand brakes. I have come to not really trust manufacture published polars, maybe for cruising cats they are more realistic?

With cruising cats I have sailed a couple of 15M and 17M customs in the 12-15T range and been quite astonished at how well they go upwind and tack and thinking yep I could get this one 'going'. Then been underwhelmed by some production boats with bows that made no sense for the rig dynamics and would hobby horse in a 3 ft chop. I recently spotted a Lapari which was not really on the radar due to OAL but the way it sat at the dock high above the waterlines and something about her made me think this little thing could have potential. I have seen one owner claiming to have got 5deg and 2 knots upwind out of a new Kiwi designed sail plan and that has got me interested in the FPs where as I might normally have been looking at boats in the Crowther Catana stable.

Has anyone had any experience tweaking 40-50ft FPs?
Any stand outs for unlock potential both good and bad or are they all pretty much book boats?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Flows

Cheers Snore, you will have had tones of first hand experience by the sounds.

Almost all of my Multi experience has been racing. Some boats I managed to tweak and radically 'unlock' others I hit tuning brick walls due to various design hand brakes. I have come to not really trust manufacture published polars, maybe for cruising cats they are more realistic?

With cruising cats I have sailed a couple of 15M and 17M customs in the 12-15T range and been quite astonished at how well they go upwind and tack and thinking yep I could get this one 'going'. Then been underwhelmed by some production boats with bows that made no sense for the rig dynamics and would hobby horse in a 3 ft chop. I recently spotted a Lapari which was not really on the radar due to OAL but the way it sat at the dock high above the waterlines and something about her made me think this little thing could have potential. I have seen one owner claiming to have got 5deg and 2 knots upwind out of a new Kiwi designed sail plan and that has got me interested in the FPs where as I might normally have been looking at boats in the Crowther Catana stable.

Has anyone had any experience tweaking 40-50ft FPs?
Any stand outs for unlock potential both good and bad or are they all pretty much book boats?

There’s a poster on CF who gets remarkable performance from his Lagoon and he has added high modulus sails, additional sail handling controls (such as the wide sheet described by Snore), folding props, and seems to be careful with weight. I’m not sure if there are tall mast options for those not limited by ICW bridge heights. CF has lots of discussions with these kinds of boats about how to add gennakers and spinnakers and how to lead various additional control lines.

But the reality is that modern FPs (along with other similar manufacturers) are relatively heavy boats with relatively wide hull beams with relatively low bridgedeck clearance - all of that means is that no matter how much power (and some models have relatively big standard sail area) you add that there are hydrodynamic limits to how fast they can go and how well they can sail in certain conditions.

An empty boat not loaded with cruising gear will sit high on her lines. But those lines still aren’t great if you are looking for consistent performance, not just in unicorn conditions. Notice that all the media showing a FP sailing along fast feature smooth seas, lots of sail area, and a true wind angle well behind the beam.

[Flows]

Yeah, I remember trying to get one 35ft race cat to go that should have been a rocketship but it would just hit a brick wall at 20knts mainly due to the flair in the bow and the CPs too far forward. Starting to get that the FP story is pretty much the same as the Leopards and 450 era Lagoons.

Back to looking for my own Foxy Kitty.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Flows

Cheers Snore, you will have had tones of first hand experience by the sounds. .....

Has anyone had any experience tweaking 40-50ft FPs?

Any stand outs for unlock potential both good and bad or are they all pretty much book boats?

I have run at least one of the Lipari (39), Hellia (44), Elba (45), and Saba (50). The performance differential had more to do with LWL than anything else. I believe a review of the polars; or the SA/D or SA/LWL ratios would verify my anecdotal findings.

If I was advising a customer, the suggestion is get the the Elba or Hellia. Why? Smallest LOA with separate heads for each stateroom. The 50' Saba does not add that much, just a bigger boat, bigger sails to wrestle and more expense.

I really like the bow thruster on the Lagoons- nice feature, worth considering if it can be added to a FP.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Flows

Yeah, I remember trying to get one 35ft race cat to go that should have been a rocketship but it would just hit a brick wall at 20knts mainly due to the flair in the bow and the CPs too far forward. Starting to get that the FP story is pretty much the same as the Leopards and 450 era Lagoons.

Back to looking for my own Foxy Kitty.

Well lets say the early FP designs are the "most performing" mass production cats.
I have a Lavezzi, 7t at 40ft length which is basically a Lipary without the hard roof...totally loaded up with all gear i hit 8.5t but actually have 2.7t payload so 9.7t. its pretty much a lengthend 38ft, same concept outremer did earlier with 38ft top and 40ft length.
had a wave slam damage that broke all stringers and bulkheads as they are glued and not laiminated. repairing that laminated all in and added bulkheads and stringers, basically copying hulls to be identical. Also using a very good bineleyester resin with biaxial mats and also reinforing the bridgedeck, and underwatership with 2-6 layers of 450. so final structual test to declare it seaworthy it revealed to be 400% stronger then new. added cost where around 6k...no brainer.
added 2 Flex-o-Fold props and 2 additional backstays in dyneema to support downwind saiiling, as i go around the world with it.

Have 37sqm genua and 55sqm main so 92sqm, with square top main of lipari over 100sqm.

sails in very light wind and also reach the 10-12kn, easier then before and you can really feel its stiffer as less squeeking too. genua /main sails are 10years old, with new you defiintly can get another 2-3 kn more out very resonable. i am focusing at bit more on optimzing downwind and use 4 till 12kn a 110sqm parasailor, 10-35kn 8m round sail and > 35kn the furled genua on the middle cleat.
sure you hit the brick wall at around 17-18 kn but that feels also very stressed.
but around 10kn is actually pretty fast and to get more performance you would have to spend seriously more money.
also its still quite safe while at the performance cats you have to always watch. its not a catana but its not that far away for much less, catana didn#t fit my budget as i went 5 years earlier to retirment then planned (with 49) so had to scale down on the cat.
former owner (motorboat guys) swaped in 2x50hp instead 2x20hp, so going 15kn wot with FFOF means have a sailing and motor cat that actually gives you a lot flexibility or when you screw up planing and hit 6kn current against you in the straight of gibraltar..well 500rpm more at 2300 on both engines fixed it while with a normal one you would have to abort.

and motorsailing with 1200-1300rpm adding 2kn for 0.5l/h makes it quite ok going 40 degrees to wind. 14-15kn is its top limit it feels good, not bad for a mass production cat.


a cool and quite afforable is a TRT1300 CR thats i think fastest for the buck, 38ft. but hard to get one.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Flows

Casamance
Belize
Orana
Helia
Lapari

the Belize from the list is the one i would choose if buck to performance.
standing heights are good too, thats issue with casamance.
otherwise australian area is great to get Schoonings 1320/1620 or chamberlain 15

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Snore

I have run at least one of the Lipari (39), Hellia (44), Elba (45), and Saba (50). The performance differential had more to do with LWL than anything else. I believe a review of the polars; or the SA/D or SA/LWL ratios would verify my anecdotal findings.

If I was advising a customer, the suggestion is get the the Elba or Hellia. Why? Smallest LOA with separate heads for each stateroom. The 50' Saba does not add that much, just a bigger boat, bigger sails to wrestle and more expense.

I really like the bow thruster on the Lagoons- nice feature, worth considering if it can be added to a FP.

fully agree saba. or same 47ft sanoa which basically is cut 50. sailed it 6month from La Rochelle to antigua...slow and not really performing.
lipari is still older design moderniced means you get good old sailing performance with the modern hardtop/salon area.
Helia is already the new boxy design, with advantages in space but not so well in sailing.