Helia 44: Wingaker vs. Parasailor

[CatNewBee]

I like the rigid suffer ring, it is heavy and eases the process bringing the sail down, and also secures the sail with the snap hooks very well. It is ellypsoid in shape, so it fits through the forward locker hatch on the L400 easily sidewise.

We take the sail in and out directly off the hatch.

[Luc bulterys]

Originally Posted by VP and the Fox

You're welcome Luk. The inflatable snuffer was a big plus for us as we have been told if we get a fibreglass one (that comes with the Istec and the Wingaker) it will be too big to fit through the forepeak hatch so it will have to be stored in the locker next to the windlass (which I don't think is an ideal place to store a sail).

It was also suggested that we can run the guys through blocks that are attached to the bow cleats with a dyneema 'loop', thereby removing the need to put another hole in the hull. We can then run the guy through pad eyes attached to the safety rail poles and the guys can be tied off to the stern cleats. We will set the guys so the parasail runs about 3m above the bow so they won't need to be on the winch.

The sheets will just run down to the block fitted at the stern when FP put the bowsprit pack in and then up onto the winches. Simple, effective and cheap. I can't see why this set up wouldn't work with the Istec parasail or the Wingaker.

Hopes this helps. Ken and Karen - The Cunning Plan.

Hi Ken and Karen. This helps a lot indeed. Especially the consequences you mentioned for our boat.
Just received the quote for the Wingaker, and turns out to be way more expensive. But I am not sure yet what is exactly included, so a bit premature to compare prices on a fair basis. But I will contact Oxley today. Thanks. Luc

[VP and the Fox]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I like the rigid suffer ring, it is heavy and eases the process bringing the sail down, and also secures the sail with the snap hooks very well. It is ellypsoid in shape, so it fits through the forward locker hatch on the L400 easily sidewise.

We take the sail in and out directly off the hatch.

That's exactly what we want to do too CatNewBee, drop it straight the locker! The Levante has a 'compression bag' so it's not much bigger than a standard suitcase when all packed up.

I'm also going to ask to get a fourth halyard installed specifically for the parasail (and for emergencies should the scheecher/genoa/mainsail halyard break)

Having said that, I haven't even used it yet so I'm only making assumptions. Fingers crossed!

[VP and the Fox]

Originally Posted by Luc bulterys

Hi Ken and Karen. This helps a lot indeed. Especially the consequences you mentioned for our boat.
Just received the quote for the Wingaker, and turns out to be way more expensive. But I am not sure yet what is exactly included, so a bit premature to compare prices on a fair basis. But I will contact Oxley today. Thanks. Luc

We were quoted E 6557 for the Wingaker from Lothar and E 8470 for the Istec Parasail through Uchimata (plus another E 3995 for the deckfittings, sheets and installation!) so the Levante at E 4799 seemed really cheap and the practical advice on how to fit it and fly it made sense. I did some checking and the Levante parasail is made in the Doyle loft in SriLanka from material owned and made by Oxley Sails. Sven (the owner) has a huge sailing history and his business partner is an expert in paragliding. There is another Astrea owner who has bought one and taken delivery but I'm yet to get a report from him.

It amazes me the variation in the prices being quoted for things for the boat that I would think would be very similar. I've had two quotes for partial air conditioning, one for E5400 and one for E9200, five quotes for a 80m2 Code Zero that ranged between E2400 to E3900 (for the same 3.3oz material) and I don't even want to mention the solar panels!

Once I'm on the boat I'm sure I won't worry about it but it's a PITA!

[CatNewBee]

We have the compression bag too, nice, but we don't use it in the locker, we just get the sail in, not using the bag.
It makes only sense if you want to transport it or store it away...
The deck fittings I have done my selve, bought the stand up blocks on line, also a massive stainless plates of 12 cm in diameter and 6mm thick as counter plates for the bow rollers some Sikaflex and screws, easy job, the rest came with the sail and the instructor. (lines, low friction rings,...)

Because we already had the Code0 rig in place, we do not needed more deck hardware. Otherwise you may need more blocks and a winch.

[barnakiel]

But you can just ask your sailmaker to make a bladder pocket and use a kite surfing bladder, uh?


Such a kite will never colapse, not even when the wind dies. Nor will it tangle with anything.



b.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

But you can just ask your sailmaker to make a bladder pocket and use a kite surfing bladder, uh?


Such a kite will never colapse, not even when the wind dies. Nor will it tangle with anything.



b.

Yes, that is the idea behind the Parasailor. It is automatically inflating. If you have a permanent inflated structure like a kite, furling and handling 45ft up in the air will become an issue.

[barnakiel]

Ah, yes. Furling will become an issue while catching spreader's ends will stop being an issue.


You know, compromises, compromises.


My own attitude to spinnakers is drop rather than furl. I found all spinnaker furling systems less than perfect. Quite unlike furling a max luff gennaker.


We had a sleeve earlier but I abandoned it too - the hard collar at the top was banging the mast at night making sleeping inside the cabin considerably sub-optimal.



b.

[CatNewBee]

We like the Parasailor, but we use to fly the Code0 more often, especially in light winds, so it remains rigged all the time on the bowsprit.

We only take it down on the trampoline when flying the Parasailor.

[psedman]

Originally Posted by VP and the Fox

We were quoted E 6557 for the Wingaker from Lothar and E 8470 for the Istec Parasail through Uchimata (plus another E 3995 for the deckfittings, sheets and installation!) so the Levante at E 4799 seemed really cheap and the practical advice on how to fit it and fly it made sense. I did some checking and the Levante parasail is made in the Doyle loft in SriLanka from material owned and made by Oxley Sails. Sven (the owner) has a huge sailing history and his business partner is an expert in paragliding. There is another Astrea owner who has bought one and taken delivery but I'm yet to get a report from him.

It amazes me the variation in the prices being quoted for things for the boat that I would think would be very similar. I've had two quotes for partial air conditioning, one for E5400 and one for E9200, five quotes for a 80m2 Code Zero that ranged between E2400 to E3900 (for the same 3.3oz material) and I don't even want to mention the solar panels!

Once I'm on the boat I'm sure I won't worry about it but it's a PITA!

VP and the Fox - Did you go ahead with the purchase of the Oxley Levante?

I'm looking at purchasing one for our Lagoon 400 catamaran and would be very interested in any feedback that you may have.

[psedman]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Wow, that is a big one. I got the recommendation from them to use a smaller sail (126m2) instead of the 142m2, that would be the max size for the L400, so it can be run at higher wind speed range especialy on passages with the trade winds..

CatNewBee - Istec recommended a 156m2 Parasailor for our Lagoon 400 S2... that's considerably larger than your 126m2 sail. We want to use the sail for short handed ocean sailing, so the ability to handle stronger, gusty winds would be more of a priority than light wind performance.

What's your opinion on a larger 156m2 sail?

Thanks,

[CatNewBee]

We finally bought a 140m2 Parasailor directly from Istec via Mr. Gerold Bergen, a freelance sales representative we met at the Boat show in Düsseldorf and we like it.

He came with his wife to the Marina in the Adriatic where we were wintering last year, brought the sail, lines and accessories and rigged it plus provided a one day training for us on the water.

Was absolutely worth it, great service!

We have the Parasailor, not the Parasail, it is a different product at a different price point. The Parasailor has a double chamber 3D wing, the parasail has a simple 2D wing. The parasailor is more stable, but also needs more wind to unfold, we fly it above 6kn. Look at the Istec website for details.

The 126m2 sail was a recommendation from the competition for a Wingacker. We finally decided to go with the parasailor.

I cannot comment on the 156m2 parasailor, never sailed one, but the 140 feels just right, good visibility from the helm and easy handling.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by VP and the Fox

We were quoted E 6557 for the Wingaker from Lothar and E 8470 for the Istec Parasail through Uchimata (plus another E 3995 for the deckfittings, sheets and installation!) so the Levante at E 4799 seemed really cheap and the practical advice on how to fit it and fly it made sense. I did some checking and the Levante parasail is made in the Doyle loft in SriLanka from material owned and made by Oxley Sails. Sven (the owner) has a huge sailing history and his business partner is an expert in paragliding. There is another Astrea owner who has bought one and taken delivery but I'm yet to get a report from him.

It amazes me the variation in the prices being quoted for things for the boat that I would think would be very similar. I've had two quotes for partial air conditioning, one for E5400 and one for E9200, five quotes for a 80m2 Code Zero that ranged between E2400 to E3900 (for the same 3.3oz material) and I don't even want to mention the solar panels!

Once I'm on the boat I'm sure I won't worry about it but it's a PITA!

You know, Maybe it’s a catamaran thing but I just don’t get the Parasailer/Wingaker concept. I’ve read all the descriptive material and talked to enthusiastic owners but I still don’t get how that opening (or wing) does all the things, (or any of them, actually) that it is supposed to do.

Then I see the photos and it looks like a very round sail, of very small area (60% of full size), with a big hole in it that supposedly works all kinds of miracles but no logical way that it does that. And why so full? The racing multihull boats use flatter spinnakers because they reach so fast it brings the apparent wind forward and a flatter sail is needed.

Then I read the costs. Holy cow! 4799-8500 euros!

Look, I just bought a 110sq meter assymetrical spinnaker, a smaller size for stronger winds and reaching conditions, new, custom made for my boat to my specification, out of high end 1.5 nylon, and it was $1100 delivered, from a small loft in China. The sail is beautiful, the shape exactly as I ordered it, and the finish and detail is immaculate.

Can someone explain what is actually behind the movement where people spend 4 -5 times as much for a small, deep, sail with a miracle hole in it? It’s like a cult.

Then there is the “no mainsail” thing. I never sail anywhere, at any time, without the mainsail. It is especially critical when using a spinnaker because without it you have no place to shelter the spinnaker while dousing. If you feel the mainsail prevents you from filling or trimming the spinnaker then I think you are doing it wrong. If you are sailing deep then square up the spinnaker more or come up onto a bit of a reach, it doesn’t take much and generally that will be faster anyhow. If you think the wind is too light to fly the kite, reach up more, bringing the apparent wind forward is called, “heating it up”. As long as you have a flattish sail and you pull the tack down to the bow you should be able to sail in very light winds.

I believe there are some echo chambers among cruisers. They tell each other how great something is and especially if it something which is easier to use that goes around and there is confirmation bias. But outside of that circle those techniques are not thought to be very effective

[MikeFergie]

I only fly my asymmetrical spinnaker without a main. I fly it off a bridle on my cat allowing me to put the tack closer to one or the other bow eye depending on the wind.

As far as dousing goes on the bridle to the tack I use a Tylaska shackle. When I want to dump the sail single handed as this is mostly how I sail you simply winch in the clew walk forward and pull the tylaska shackle and the tack floats out and flat and you can pull down the sock without any effort. The minute you dump the tack all of the power has gone and the boat immediately stops.
Sailing Impi has a nice video of this on YouTube and he has been doing this for years on his Lagoon440.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by wingssail

You know, Maybe it’s a catamaran thing but I just don’t get the Parasailer/Wingaker concept. I’ve read all the descriptive material and talked to enthusiastic owners but I still don’t get how that opening (or wing) does all the things, (or any of them, actually) that it is supposed to do.

Then I see the photos and it looks like a very round sail, of very small area (60% of full size), with a big hole in it that supposedly works all kinds of miracles but no logical way that it does that. And why so full? The racing multihull boats use flatter spinnakers because they reach so fast it brings the apparent wind forward and a flatter sail is needed.

Then I read the costs. Holy cow! 4799-8500 euros!

Look, I just bought a 110sq meter assymetrical spinnaker, a smaller size for stronger winds and reaching conditions, new, custom made for my boat to my specification, out of high end 1.5 nylon, and it was $1100 delivered, from a small loft in China. The sail is beautiful, the shape exactly as I ordered it, and the finish and detail is immaculate.

Can someone explain what is actually behind the movement where people spend 4 -5 times as much for a small, deep, sail with a miracle hole in it? It’s like a cult.

Koolaid included.