Want To Buy: 40-50 Foot Cat - Somewhat Unorthodox Approach

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by shadowofrealism

Now you are simply being ridiculous.

Exactly. What does a buyer have to lose with a counter offer?

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by shadowofrealism

Now you are simply being ridiculous.

If you went up to the proverbial man on the street and said "I am selling a boat but before you can make an offer on it you have to give me thousands (some times tens of thousands) of dollars that you may not easily be able to get back quickly they would say you are the one being ridiculous.

What a lot of sellers/brokers seem to ignore is that the boat marked reflects the economy in general and the housing market in particular. Depending on who you believe 50% or more of home owners are under water, e.g. their homes are worth less than the mortgage. The same is true for many boats.

If someone selling their home said before you make an offer on the home you have to give me a check for 10% of your offer how many homes do you think they would sell.

The real unemployment rate, U6, is probably North of 15%. I wonder what the real unemployment rate of brokers is.

[shadowofrealism]

You miss the point, with a valid serious written offer a deposit insures that the both the buyer and seller are serious. Sure go ahead and offer a seller a verbal offer on their boat. 99.9% per cent of the time a seller and/or broker will tell you to put your offer in writing with a deposit of 10% or more to make sure you are not simply playing games or such. But whatever, it is useless to debate this threat any further. Reality will pinch you in your arse soon enough. Good Luck in your search for your Dream Cat.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by shadowofrealism

You miss the point, with a valid serious written offer a deposit insures that the both the buyer and seller are serious. Sure go ahead and offer a seller a verbal offer on their boat. 99.9% per cent of the time a seller and/or broker will tell you to put your offer in writing with a deposit of 10% or more to make sure you are not simply playing games or such. But whatever, it is useless to debate this threat any further. Reality will pinch you in your arse soon enough. Good Luck in your search for your Dream Cat.

You are quite right. This issue has been hotly debated before to no avail. Apparently in Europe the procedure is quite different, but here in the US you won't get very far without a reasonable deposit which is usually 10%. And I'm assuming we are talking a brokered boat and a price that is more than a few grand.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by shadowofrealism

You miss the point, SNIP

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.

I have bought and sold real estate since 1975. At no time has anyone ever asked me to accompany an offer with 10% earnest money. In fact lots of con games start off with a request for earnest money.

As I posted earlier banks do pay attention to NADA values which basically means potential sellers needing a loan to buy a boat are eliminated.

Basically the business model for high end boat sales is broken. Lots of potential buyers find loans impossible to get. To make matters worse friction in connecting buyers and sellers increases the supply in what is already a glutted market.

Any Econ 101 student would understand the only way to deal with an over supply of goods is to reach a market clearing price level. Instead sellers stay misinformed about the true utility of their goods and brokers, at least the ones that still have jobs, put road blocks in front of potential buyers.

The plain fact of the matter is that no one really needs a pleasure boat so buyers have no problem waiting, while the longer a seller waits the more it costs to maintain the boat.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Doodles

You are quite right. This issue has been hotly debated before to no avail. Apparently in Europe the procedure is quite different, but here in the US you won't get very far without a reasonable deposit which is usually 10%. And I'm assuming we are talking a brokered boat and a price that is more than a few grand.

Do you seriously think I have not received emails from multiple sellers wanting me to check out their boats. If a seller really wants to sell and their boat has been on the market for some time with no offers they are more than willing to consider an offer with no deposit, especially if I offer a signed contract saying I am willing to pay an amount we discussed over the phone for your boat.

Just for the record I have received emails from some owners who had their boat listed with a broker for a limited time and after the broker did not sell struck out on their own with a lower price than the broker had listed.

And yes the price point for the boats I am looking at ranges from $US100k and up.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Do you seriously think I have not received emails from multiple sellers wanting me to check out their boats. If a seller really wants to sell and their boat has been on the market for some time with no offers they are more than willing to consider an offer with no deposit, especially if I offer a signed contract saying I am willing to pay an amount we discussed over the phone for your boat.

Just for the record I have received emails from some owners who had their boat listed with a broker for a limited time and after the broker did not sell struck out on their own with a lower price than the broker had listed.

And yes the price point for the boats I am looking at ranges from $US100k and up.

With all these offers I'm surprised you have found your boat yet?

Seriously, why are they emailing you directly? Did you post in the classifieds that you are looking for a boat? Maybe that's why you're getting the offers. i think its quite different if you are looking for a particular boat and not just a xx foot sloop.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Doodles

With all these offers I'm surprised you have found your boat yet?

SNIP

There are lots of how to buy a boat threads, both at CF and elsewhere, that advise "take your time". Many posts in these threads say the process can take up to six months and sometimes more.

I have inspected three boats in the time span of less that two months driving perhaps 1,500 miles. I have a couple of more boats I want to at least look at in person before I make any offers. I am scheduled to go on another trip later this week/weekend. At that point I will have viewed in person the boat models I am interested in and will feel much more comfortable making an offer.

My personal assessment is that I am moving faster than most in the boat buying process.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by shadowofrealism

You miss the point, with a valid serious written offer a deposit insures that the both the buyer and seller are serious. Sure go ahead and offer a seller a verbal offer on their boat. 99.9% per cent of the time a seller and/or broker will tell you to put your offer in writing with a deposit of 10% or more to make sure you are not simply playing games or such. But whatever, it is useless to debate this threat any further. Reality will pinch you in your arse soon enough. Good Luck in your search for your Dream Cat.

I appreciate that we probably won't ever be buying or selling boats to each other (and I suspect that neither of us care about that), but nonetheless your post is worth a response.

I think that it is you who misses the point - it is not the deposit that makes a buyer and seller "serious", it is the signed contract - plus the buyer putting hand in pocket for the pre-purchase expenses (Survey / Haul out / SeaTrial), which cash will never be coming back to him (unlike a deposit could).

Does the 10% deposit have merit? Yes!, but mainly for the Broker (for the reasons I stated earlier) and partly for the Vendor (if he is trying to sell a pig in a poke) - by having hold of a buyers cash as leverage to force a sale through. But make no sense at all for a Buyer to put himself in that position (I appreciate that legally the deposit may come back. one day. but in this case possession is 9/10ths of the law).

I am ignoring for the moment the risk that the person holding the cash wanders off into the sunset, goes broke or simply that the cash gets frozen due to unrelated legal events - like getting divorced! or dying .....on all of those potential events the fact that "it never happened before" is of no comfort to the person left holding the sh#tty end of the stick when the music stops (to mix my metaphors ).

What happens during the 2 week (1 month?) contract period if the buyer simply changes his mind? Pretty much the same as happens if he pays a deposit - he finds a good reason(s) in the Survey to reject the boat (unless what you are selling is perfect there is always something) and gets his deposit back. or he takes you to court. What has the Vendor lost? a couple of weeks of not being able to sign another sale contract (boo hoo! - count yerself lucky that you have folks queing up!) and he gains (if smart) a copy of the Survey, both as a "To do" list and as a useful (and free ) marketing tool. If someone wants to come and survey my boat for free - why would I turn that down?

Of course under the Contract you probably could go after the Buyer legally for failing to complete the deal - but unless the case is a slam dunk, as not holding his cash (and therefore placing the onus on him to go to court) then you probably won't do that. "You" would however be far more willing to go all legal (and righteous?!) if you had "my" cash (Deposit) in the bank.

As I said in an earlier post - I appreciate that different "Norms" apply in different countries, but folks just have to ask themselves in what other circumstances of buying and selling s/h goods is a 10% deposit required - the answer is none, which IMO is a good indicator of how "normal" that "norm" is .

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by shadowofrealism

SNIP
Reality will pinch you in your arse soon enough.
SNIP

Reality check time.

There is a glut in the boat market.

I can easily google something like Corsair C31RAC and get a dozen hits. Maybe not so many hits on a Telstar T2 or the Dragon Fly cruisers, but they are out there. When I post I am interested in a tri I can stand up in that will go 55MPH to windward being towed behind my truck I get emails from owners with boats meeting those criteria.

It may take me a little time with a spread sheet to put weights on the different features of different boats, along with the prices. But it is far easier now for a buyer to get a good feel for which features which boats have and what the prices are.

It is also easy to call up, and meet up, with brokers and get some idea just how capable they are. I have been very impressed with two brokers who clearly understand just what I am looking for in a boat and have provided great advice. By the same token there have been other brokers who are not so capable.

As I posted earlier the real unemployment rate, U6, is North of 15%; but the real question is has the unemployment rate jumped up to bite some brokers in the buttissmo.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I appreciate that we probably won't ever be buying or selling boats to each other (and I suspect that neither of us care about that), but nonetheless your post is worth a response.

I think that it is you who misses the point - it is not the deposit that makes a buyer and seller "serious", it is the signed contract - plus the buyer putting hand in pocket for the pre-purchase expenses (Survey / Haul out / SeaTrial), which cash will never be coming back to him (unlike a deposit could).

Does the 10% deposit have merit? Yes!, but mainly for the Broker (for the reasons I stated earlier) and partly for the Vendor (if he is trying to sell a pig in a poke) - by having hold of a buyers cash as leverage to force a sale through. But make no sense at all for a Buyer to put himself in that position (I appreciate that legally the deposit may come back. one day. but in this case possession is 9/10ths of the law).

I am ignoring for the moment the risk that the person holding the cash wanders off into the sunset, goes broke or simply that the cash gets frozen due to unrelated legal events - like getting divorced! or dying .....on all of those potential events the fact that "it never happened before" is of no comfort to the person left holding the sh#tty end of the stick when the music stops (to mix my metaphors ).

What happens during the 2 week (1 month?) contract period if the buyer simply changes his mind? Pretty much the same as happens if he pays a deposit - he finds a good reason(s) in the Survey to reject the boat (unless what you are selling is perfect there is always something) and gets his deposit back. or he takes you to court. What has the Vendor lost? a couple of weeks of not being able to sign another sale contract (boo hoo! - count yerself lucky that you have folks queing up!) and he gains (if smart) a copy of the Survey, both as a "To do" list and as a useful (and free ) marketing tool. If someone wants to come and survey my boat for free - why would I turn that down?

Of course under the Contract you probably could go after the Buyer legally for failing to complete the deal - but unless the case is a slam dunk, as not holding his cash (and therefore placing the onus on him to go to court) then you probably won't do that. "You" would however be far more willing to go all legal (and righteous?!) if you had "my" cash (Deposit) in the bank.

As I said in an earlier post - I appreciate that different "Norms" apply in different countries, but folks just have to ask themselves in what other circumstances of buying and selling s/h goods is a 10% deposit required - the answer is none, which IMO is a good indicator of how "normal" that "norm" is .

For what it worth DOJ, the deposit system has been used for a long time in the US and most people have not had problems with it. The ones today that seem to object are the ones (IMHO) that want to kick tires and bottom feed over the internet and have their verbal offers taken seriously. I have yet to know anyone seriously looking for a particular boat that has had a problem with this. I work with the same "buyer's" broker each time and he always holds the money. Never had a problem even when I backed out and asked for it back. Be upfront, be serious and work with reputable professionals ... always works for me.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Doodles

For what it worth DOJ, the deposit system has been used for a long time in the US and most people have not had problems with it. The ones today that seem to object are the ones (IMHO) that want to kick tires and bottom feed over the internet and have their verbal offers taken seriously. I have yet to know anyone seriously looking for a particular boat that has had a problem with this. I work with the same "buyer's" broker each time and he always holds the money. Never had a problem even when I backed out and asked for it back. Be upfront, be serious and work with reputable professionals ... always works for me.

Hopefully you I'll find an honest broker because one time it took us 3 months to get our deposit back, in payments. Bad experiance and this was through a "reputable" broker.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by smj

Hopefully you I'll find an honest broker because one time it took us 3 months to get our deposit back, in payments. Bad experiance and this was through a "reputable" broker.

There are ways to make people pay for behavior like that.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Doodles

There are ways to make people pay for behavior like that.

I wish I new how 8 years ago when it happened. We contacted the YBAA boat brokers association, the group that are supposed to make sure brokers are ethical, what a waste of time. Files with the DA, but it never got that far. Finally threatened to go to the Annapolis boat show and set up shop in front of their booth to tell our story, it worked!