[SOLD] 42' cat ketch ocean voyager $39.9k

[Ronald Rogala]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Ron,

I am afraid you are between a rock and a hard spot. Everything you say and believe may be correct but you needed to go to court in order to judicate the repossession and default by the buyer. The prior buyer having a copy of a contract leaves an aura of concern about good title.

This is a very interesting point and made me think of a similar situation - like selling a house on a land contract, which I am very familiar with.
I sold a house on a land contract in which the LC was recorded with the county recorders office. Because the LC was recorded, I had to get a quit claim deed from the LC buyer so that the next buyer can get title insurance on the property. But, if the LC is not recorded, then I don't have to do anything because there is no cloud on the title. So, I just resell it again. I have never had an LC buyer come back with a lawsuit when they broke the contract and vacated the property. Now, if they break the LC contract ad don't vacate, then I have to take them to court to win repossession and settle the contract all at the same time. I have done that a few times already.
I think that is a very similar situation. However, the buyers were never listed as buyers with the USCG documentation center. I could have done that and then listed myself as a lienholder which would have made them have more buyers rights, like a homeowner, but I didn't do that. Because I didn't do that, they could not get boat insurance in their name, and they could not list the boat for sale, because they did not own the boat. I would have to get the insurance in my name, and list the boat for sale with a broker. Interesting stories.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Ronald Rogala

OK, I finally contacted my maritime attty to comment on some of these claims and worries you guys are expressing here. So, I emailed him and gave him a few of your comments and this was his reply:

Mr. Rogala,
"This goes back to an earlier discussion you and I had on the subject- there is no agreement in place with Lochner's client, and you remain the sole title owner. There is no obligation to disclose the allegations exchanged with Lochner, for the very reasons you now cite. It is your boat to sell. It would have been nice to have the express cooperation by way of a written agreement, but you folks couldn't agree on the numbers.

And the risk of a lawsuit by Lochner's client against a new purchaser is lessened or eliminated if you follow through on your promise to pay them any sums above your "loan," and the costs of this sale.

But there is no lien in place, and no claims asserted for an equitable ingterest that would impair your sale of the vessel. After sale, there remains risk that you can ameliorate, but not eliminate. Upon sale of the boat, for instance, I think it is more likely that you get sued for some portion of the proceeds of sale. There is no practical reason for Lochner to involve the new owners.

And what "upgrades?" Perhaps they wanted to create an in-board swimming pool in your bilge?

My thoughts.

TCV"

Who is Lochner? Sounds like an attorney of the buyer?

[Paulsan]

Wow. This has turned into a very informative thread about what to look out for when buying a boat from a litigious point of view. Correlates to buying a cow, airplane, lawn mower etc. Many valid points have been made on both sides. Is it time to put this one to bed?
If I have to involve a lawyer to buy a pleasure vessel, I certainly am not your target market.


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[MonaOnR3]

just a quick note of what can be hiding in the background without known knowledge of a buyer, from personal experance..

A few years ago we were looking for a Early model Catalina 22 to compete in PHRF racing in the bay, as most racers know that the numbers count in PHRF and the C22 sports a 270 rating..
In asking around Folsom Lake outside of Sacramento, we had heard that a C22 on a trailer had been lien sailed, and had been taken to a local dismantler to be junked. We found the boat and purchased it from the dismantler for the sum of $500. total with the trailer.
We were in the process of bringing it back to life when we went to California DMV to change ownership and registration.
What came up was a couple odd numbers and when she looked it up, it said El Darado County had a lien on the boat , even though we had clear paperwork..
Seems the taxs had not been paid in a number of years and being coumpounded and with fines, the cost was up around $12,000 to clear the boat.
We ended up junking the boat, and lost the origional $500.

Now I'm not saying there is hidden costs behind the boat but I'd sure want some legal paperwork on the boat saying no-body could attach or levy liens on it in the future. there may not be anything on the boat now BUT how many years has the person involved have to levy a lien. 1 year, 2 maybe, or 10.
And it might not show up now, but could in the future, stopping you from selling it 10 years down the line..
Wether the lien is false or not, it has to be cleared to sell the boat sometime in the future.
Its like having an insurance claim on a house. the issues might be fixed but the paperwork will follow the house forever.

[Ronald Rogala]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Who is Lochner? Sounds like an attorney of the buyer?

Yes, Lochner is the buyers Atty. Hilton is the buyers.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Paulsan

Wow. This has turned into a very informative thread about what to look out for when buying a boat from a litigious point of view. Correlates to buying a cow, airplane, lawn mower etc. Many valid points have been made on both sides. Is it time to put this one to bed?
If I have to involve a lawyer to buy a pleasure vessel, I certainly am not your target market.


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At least Ron was up front with it.

[Ronald Rogala]

Originally Posted by MonaOnR3

just a quick note of what can be hiding in the background without known knowledge of a buyer, from personal experance..

A few years ago we were looking for a Early model Catalina 22 to compete in PHRF racing in the bay, as most racers know that the numbers count in PHRF and the C22 sports a 270 rating..
In asking around Folsom Lake outside of Sacramento, we had heard that a C22 on a trailer had been lien sailed, and had been taken to a local dismantler to be junked. We found the boat and purchased it from the dismantler for the sum of $500. total with the trailer.
We were in the process of bringing it back to life when we went to California DMV to change ownership and registration.
What came up was a couple odd numbers and when she looked it up, it said El Darado County had a lien on the boat , even though we had clear paperwork..
Seems the taxs had not been paid in a number of years and being coumpounded and with fines, the cost was up around $12,000 to clear the boat.
We ended up junking the boat, and lost the origional $500.

Now I'm not saying there is hidden costs behind the boat but I'd sure want some legal paperwork on the boat saying no-body could attach or levy liens on it in the future. there may not be anything on the boat now BUT how many years has the person involved have to levy a lien. 1 year, 2 maybe, or 10.
And it might not show up now, but could in the future, stopping you from selling it 10 years down the line..
Wether the lien is false or not, it has to be cleared to sell the boat sometime in the future.
Its like having an insurance claim on a house. the issues might be fixed but the paperwork will follow the house forever.

There are no liens filed. To file some lein, the buyers would have to go to court, take me to court and try to win the case. I welcome that. Then it would resolve itself. In the Catalina situation, there were clouds on the title, leins, or maybe it was a salvage title. I can see how that could haunt a buyer, but in my case, the title is squeeky clean. I welcome the buyer to try to take me to court. He would not win any reimbursement. He would only lose the case and spend 3k in Atty fees and $400 filing fees. Who would want to do that?

[Paulsan]

Yes. Up front with it. But now it's over. How much longer must it go on? Let this thread sail off into the setting sun. From a logical point of view, no one on this forum would enter into a financial contract with the vessel or it's lien holders. Whoever they may be. Let it go.


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[Ronald Rogala]

Originally Posted by Cadence

At least Ron was up front with it.

Thanks.
According to my Atty, it isn't necessary that I even disclose this information. There is nothing legally binding anymore since the contract was nullified and abandoned. The title was unaffected.

[Ronald Rogala]

Originally Posted by Paulsan

Yes. Up front with it. But now it's over. How much longer must it go on? Let this thread sail off into the setting sun. From a logical point of view, no one on this forum would enter into a financial contract with the vessel or it's lien holders. Whoever they may be. Let it go.


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Sounds good to me. All angles have been covered. All explained. Anyone that is still afraid should stay home in bed. Yawn!

[MonaOnR3]

Originally Posted by Ronald Rogala

There are no liens filed. To file some lein, the buyers would have to go to court, take me to court and try to win the case. I welcome that. Then it would resolve itself. In the Catalina situation, there were clouds on the title, leins, or maybe it was a salvage title. I can see how that could haunt a buyer, but in my case, the title is squeeky clean. I welcome the buyer to try to take me to court. He would not win any reimbursement. He would only lose the case and spend 3k in Atty fees and $400 filing fees. Who would want to do that?

The reason I brought up the time line. How long , "legaly" does someone have to file a lien.
And I'm not sure about them having to take you to court to file as when we owned the Marine Canvas Business, it was common for us to file a contractors lien befor we started a large project, The cost was little and it was just a matter of filing paperwork, and the owner rarely knew that we did it. and only after the project was paid for, did we file a settlement on the lien.
If I were to purchase your boat, I'd want some type of paperwork from a court saying the boat could never be liened from this date forward do to past conflicts..

[Paulsan]

it was common for us to file a contractors lien befor we started a large project, The cost was little and it was just a matter of filing paperwork, and the owner rarely knew that we did it. and only after the project was paid for, did we file a settlement on the lien.

WOW! I take it back, please continue the open discussion. I am learning much about my Southern neighbours.



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[Ronald Rogala]

You are probably talking about state registered and titled vessels. My boat is USCG documented. My boat isn't registered or titled within any state. I'm not sure if the USCG accepts leins from contractors.

I think a notarized agreement would be all that would be necessary.
As the Atty that chimed in said, the most that would happen is that the buyer night come after me personally....not after the boat - for reimbursement.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Paulsan

Yes. Up front with it. But now it's over. How much longer must it go on? Let this thread sail off into the setting sun. From a logical point of view, no one on this forum would enter into a financial contract with the vessel or it's lien holders. Whoever they may be. Let it go.


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Are you sure no one might buy it, that is on here. I think you are making an assumption. If you don't like it don't read it. I wish Ron well. Seems like a nice boat for the $. I wish he had never agreed to finance it. Boats should be cash on the barrel head. Unfortunately banks won't touch boats past a curtain age, Such is life.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Ronald Rogala

You are probably talking about state registered and titled vessels. My boat is USCG documented. My boat isn't registered or titled within any state. I'm not sure if the USCG accepts leins from contractors.

I think a notarized agreement would be all that would be necessary.
As the Atty that chimed in said, the most that would happen is that the buyer night come after me personally....not after the boat - for reimbursement.

I believe the CG does accept liens from contractors. I also believe a notarized statement between the buyer and seller stating any problems due to the previous sale will be the sellers responsibility would be a good idea. If it was a shoal draft centerboard model I would be interested, but as it is it would cut me out of to many cruising areas.