400: European Boat - Propane Tank Question

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

As somebody else in this thread pointed out, the EU seems to be very lax in their handling of LPG installations. I know that in the U.S. and Canada, such regulators would not be approved for marine installation, ot indeed for any permanent installation. Only threaded or flare connection is allowed.

In that regard I think that my having the bottle in the cockpit is sensible (and eventually on the stern rail - I have seen others do the same). As I mentioned I will be making a bag for it. Though I also paint and grease my regulator against corrosion.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

Well, I certainly violate the "no plumbing fittings outside the gas locker" part. But I still don't think it applies in EU and feel that I have taken due diligence with my fitting. But thanks for the info.

You're very welcome.

And I should have mentioned that there is an exception: if the main line is copper, a connector to approved hose AT the appliance is allowed, to connect to a gimballed stove.

The bottom line is to eliminate as many possible leak sources as possible. Intuitively, one would think a local shutoff valve, as pictured in the article linked above, would be a good safety feature, but it's also at least three more potential leak sources. The one pictured has FIVE potential leak sources.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

You're very welcome.

And I should have mentioned that there is an exception: if the main line is copper, a connector to approved hose AT the appliance is allowed, to connect to a gimballed stove.

The bottom line is to eliminate as many possible leak sources as possible. Intuitively, one would think a local shutoff valve, as pictured in the article linked above, would be a good safety feature, but it's also at least three more potential leak sources. The one pictured has FIVE potential leak sources.

Ah, yes, I have one, with an armoured hose connection to the stove. The shut-off valve is too close to the stove for my liking, seems redundant. I was thinking of making it accessible from the cockpit, though tbh I can just turn off the regulator with my current set-up.

[Brewgyver]

I agree, I can get from the galley to the propane locker in a few steps. Of course, the switch panel for the solenoid is in the galley, so in the case of a stove-top fire, it can be cut off instantly, and I have an extinguisher mounted right next to it.

[SVHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

In that regard I think that my having the bottle in the cockpit is sensible (and eventually on the stern rail - I have seen others do the same). As I mentioned I will be making a bag for it. Though I also paint and grease my regulator against corrosion.

Be very careful painting regulators. Nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but...

They have a very small hole which needs to stay open to sense atmospheric pressure. If it is clogged with paint or bugs, or such, very unpredictable (and dangerous) things can happen to the propane pressure!

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

Be very careful painting regulators. Nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but...

They have a very small hole which needs to stay open to sense atmospheric pressure. If it is clogged with paint or bugs, or such, very unpredictable (and dangerous) things can happen to the propane pressure!

Well, as I said, they are outside, though I do smoke in the cockpit. But I feel that I would notice the smell and I also keep tabs on my usage, and inspect the system if it changes from the norm. Although I would like a pressure valve. I don't paint to hide damage, I paint to protect it from it.

[billgewater]

Suggest you ask your insurance company. Ultimately, if the worst scenario eventuates, you will be "protected". Irrespective of any state or country standards or regulations.
In Australia, the Queensland regulations apply if you wish to stay here for any time over (I think) three months. These regulations require a) that the installation must be carried out by a QLD certified marine gas installer b) If the vessel is commercial it needs to be gas tested every year. c) the gas line plumbing must be gas certified tubing (it has a green plastic cover over the copper tubing.) Detectors with solenoid cut offs/alarms are not necessarily required but that depends on other various circumstances.
Apparently, you can have a self installed gas cooker at the stern of the boat. No conditions required.
To have a vessel updated to meet these requirements for an internal cooker can be so expensive that that option of alternatives such as induction cookers (please don't start that again) is worth considering.
Go to another state or territory, and the rules may well be different.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

Well, as I said, they are outside, though I do smoke in the cockpit. But I feel that I would notice the smell and I also keep tabs on my usage, and inspect the system if it changes from the norm. Although I would like a pressure valve. I don't paint to hide damage, I paint to protect it from it.

Hmmm, so you keep an un-installed cylinder full of a potential explosive in the cockpit, and sit there and smoke?

All kidding aside, what "pressure valve"?

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

Hmmm, so you keep an un-installed cylinder full of a potential explosive in the cockpit, and sit there and smoke?

All kidding aside, what "pressure valve"?

"Gauge", I meant, but I feel that any benefit from installing one is lost by adding something else that can break :P
Realise that you are joking, but seriously - gas safety is on my mind, and the way I do things is no different to how some other cruiser do (not that that is a reason in and of itself). If the gas is going to leak I would rather it do it outside. I keep an eye on all parts of the system including the regulator and replace anything that looks dodgy. And it sounds like you are the kind of person that understands that a gas leak would be unlikely to reach explosive air/gas ratios outside.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

"Gauge", I meant, but I feel that any benefit from installing one is lost by adding something else that can break :P
Realise that you are joking, but seriously - gas safety is on my mind, and the way I do things is no different to how some other cruiser do (not that that is a reason in and of itself). If the gas is going to leak I would rather it do it outside. I keep an eye on all parts of the system including the regulator and replace anything that looks dodgy.

As long as the cockpit is open at the bottom and NOT open in any way to the main hull volume it's probably not too dangerous, but it is not likely to be legal or accepted by any of the safety schemes. But if the cockpit is drained by below the waterline drains, then it is not suitable -- spilled gas won't drain out that way.



I think it's better not to improvise this but follow the standards of a recognized safety scheme. For that, you will need a gas locker.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As long as the cockpit is open at the bottom and NOT open in any way to the main hull volume it's probably not too dangerous, but it is not likely to be legal or accepted by any of the safety schemes. But if the cockpit is drained by below the waterline drains, then it is not suitable -- spilled gas won't drain out that way.



I think it's better not to improvise this but follow the standards of a recognized safety scheme. For that, you will need a gas locker.

Yes, thanks for making that clear. Where it currently sits, which I realise is not ideal and is temporary, it does have the ability to leak into the cockpit sole in the right conditions, but there are big cockpit drains that empty above the waterline. When I do have a bag it will be reinforced with webbing as its main structural component, and there will be small drains for gas to escape.

Really not trying to say that this is the best way to do it, a conversation just arose about how I do it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

Yes, thanks for making that clear. Where it currently sits, which I realise is not ideal and is temporary, it does have the ability to leak into the cockpit sole in the right conditions, but there are big cockpit drains that empty above the waterline. When I do have a bag it will be reinforced with webbing as its main structural component, and there will be small drains for gas to escape.

Really not trying to say that this is the best way to do it, a conversation just arose about how I do it.

I understand where you're coming from. Not legal or advisable, but if you have "big cockpit drains that empty above the waterline" then it's not all that bad.


Building a gas locker need not be expensive or difficult. There's a video on NBJS showing how the Norwegian guy builds on with his little son, in like half a day. A plywood box can be made to work.


I don't remember which video it was, but here is his channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/kjolevannspumpe


Here's another perfectly suitable home-made gas locker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LYqGWfhBCQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA0Rs1zLB4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6UGAqgMR1c

[Captn_Black]

As for potential internal leaks, as part of my regular inspections I will disturb the air in the bilges to see if I can smell anything, I do also have a bilge blower - although admittedly the main reason I installed that was so that I could adapt it to be an extractor for when I do interior painting with a long flexible length of ducting.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

As for potential internal leaks, as part of my regular inspections I will disturb the air in the bilges to see if I can smell anything, I do also have a bilge blower - although admittedly the main reason I installed that was so that I could adapt it to be an extractor for when I do interior painting with a long flexible length of ducting.

A bilge blower is good (ignition protected? ). But not a substitute for making sure that the gas doesn't get there in the first place. The Lord Trenchard crew were pumping their bilges every day, and it didn't prevent them from getting blown up.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I understand where you're coming from. Not legal or advisable, but if you have "big cockpit drains that empty above the waterline" then it's not all that bad.


Building a gas locker need not be expensive or difficult. There's a video on NBJS showing how the Norwegian guy builds on with his little son, in like half a day. A plywood box can be made to work.

The seat that mine sits on currently is actually adapted to be a gas locker. But for a small camping gas bottle. Not really suitable for a family of 3, but I think it did technically meet the requirements. I could maybe fashion something in the lazarette, which has a watertight bulkhead already, but I also have plans to have a gasoline genny there for power tools, and the unused quarter berth will be our daughters when she is older.
If I had both the genny and a gas locker in the lazarette it would restrict my access to the steering gear. So on balance, I think my solution is ok, although I know I wouldn't get insured for it.