400: Lagoon 400

[impi]

Hanafe,
Thanks for the message.
My Lagoon has a relief valve between the toilet and the storage tank - it cannot be manually opened and closed. Have you fitted this valve to the sea water inlet pipe and if so what stops the smell once it is opened?

[paulrack]

Hi Impi

Are you moored at the Elliot basin?, I think I saw you enjoying the sun off Grainger bay on Sunday. I had just got back from overseas and was very frustrated at not being able to take Catarina out due to domestic chores.

Can you explain in more detail what you mean by the relief valve?

Best wishes

[impi]

Hey Paulrack
Yes we are moored at Elliot basin and yes again - what a STUNNING day off Granger Bay with Table Mountains backdrop huh !!!!
What boat is Catarina and where do you keep her?

We have the owners version Lagoon 440 which has 3 toilets. Each has its own separate storage tank. 2 pipes are visible at the base of the toilet - I assume the one sucks in sea water for flush and the other has a 'one way' (???) valve to the storage tank which I guesse is to stop a backflow into the toilet once it is flushed since the storage tank sits higher than the toilet.

I looked at the thread by Hanafe and was interested in the valve he has installed supplying the toilet with water (pic on pg 12 of this thread), and wondered how that keeps the smell out. Im guessing the odur is from dead sea organisms (?) and someone told me they installed a unit that takes a chlorine tablet (similar to a swimming pool) which neutralises the sea water coming in, but Im not too sure about that. I have put it to the agents for our boat and am advised it is natural to have this odur, but they cant explain why it is only on one of our three toilets !!!

Do you have any ideas?

Regards

[paulrack]

Hi Impi
Catarina is a Maverick 400 which was launched at the end of July. She is also an owners version. I keep her at RCYC, although this week she will be at the V&A as Maverick are using her as a show boat at the CT boat show. I must say I do not seem to have any smells on my heads. They do pump dry, not sure if that makes a difference. It is worded if only one of your heads smells, I would make sire the agent sorts it out. One good way of making woman hate boats is to have smelly heads! I hope to meet you sometime.
Paul

[Garold]

Impi

If you discover the magic strategy then please post it.

Unless of course, hanafe is right and he got there before you.

And Paul, I sympethise about work spoiling good boating days. I have three months of 6-7 day weeks at the moment so my only taste of boating are forums. Just don't get into those RTW threads, they make me feel a bit inadequate reading how others have managed to disconnect from the rat race entirely.

Cheers

Garold

[impi]

Hi Garold,
Certainly will do - Im on a mission !!!

Paul - I will be at the boat show this weekend, so will look out for your Maverick. I met Rudi who builds them - splendid guy and he is building a really nice vessel.

Ana and I are planning to leave next year on our world cruise - not sure how wise it is bucking out of lifes normal routine ...... but we are.

Cheers guys

Brent

[loupdemer]

Garold, that blanketing of the jib happens on all boats downwind. When you see that happen, you have two options. 1: head up a little bit, just enough for the jib to catch wind. When the jib fills with air, that means you are on a broad reach. You'll have to gybe a few times to reach your destination, but the extra boat speed will make it worth the trouble. 2: If you don't feel like doing a series of gybes, then "wing" the jib. That is, sheet it on the windward side, opposite to the main. Sailing "wing and wing" allows you to steer directly to a downwind destination, but is actually slower than sailing a well-trimmed broad reach and gybing a few times.

The other thing to remember when you see the jib get blanketed is that you are at risk of an accidental gybe, which can be dangerous. It's best to avoid sailing with a blanketed jib, and take corrective action when you see it. Either head up to a broad reach (safer and faster) or wing the jib and sail a run (fewer gybes and looks really cool).

[hanafe]

Impi,
the valve is fitted to the outlet hose, leading to the holding tank to stopp the grey water flowing back into the bowl. After a very good long flush we immediately close this valve. Than the bowl is almost dry. Before opening the valve you need to fill the bowls slightly with seawater again. This is stopping the smell coming from the hose.
We close the valve only when we leave the boat for a couple of days. During normal usage there is no smell as the water is not long enough in the bowl to start to smell.
I have the feeling some think this solution is to simple. Anyway for us it works perfectly alright.
rgds
HanaFe

[Garold]

Originally Posted by loupdemer

Garold, that blanketing of the jib happens on all boats downwind. When you see that happen, you have two options. 1: head up a little bit, just enough for the jib to catch wind. When the jib fills with air, that means you are on a broad reach. You'll have to gybe a few times to reach your destination, but the extra boat speed will make it worth the trouble. 2: If you don't feel like doing a series of gybes, then "wing" the jib. That is, sheet it on the windward side, opposite to the main. Sailing "wing and wing" allows you to steer directly to a downwind destination, but is actually slower than sailing a well-trimmed broad reach and gybing a few times.

The other thing to remember when you see the jib get blanketed is that you are at risk of an accidental gybe, which can be dangerous. It's best to avoid sailing with a blanketed jib, and take corrective action when you see it. Either head up to a broad reach (safer and faster) or wing the jib and sail a run (fewer gybes and looks really cool).

loupdemer

You sussed me out. After many years of sailing I still am mystified by the whole thing about moving without engines.

And yes, I still thought that there was a way that I could sail effectively and maybe speedily directly downwind. However, I kept coming back to a broad reach. But I always believed that it was just my lack of knowledge that prevented us sailing directly downwind as fast!

This is obviously compounded by the fact that Lagoon seem to expressly state in their literature that you should never sail under jib alone. Which I also assume applies to spinnakers, cruising chutes, gennekers etc. And these certainly seem the best way to go in a multihull if the wind is not to much and is from behind.

Anyway, thanks for your effort to spell it out to me.

But just to note that the square top mainsail does seem to cause a bigger blanketing effect than the normal main that we had on our L380.

Cheers

Garold

[Garold]

Originally Posted by hanafe

Impi,
the valve is fitted to the outlet hose, leading to the holding tank to stopp the grey water flowing back into the bowl. After a very good long flush we immediately close this valve. Than the bowl is almost dry. Before opening the valve you need to fill the bowls slightly with seawater again. This is stopping the smell coming from the hose.
We close the valve only when we leave the boat for a couple of days. During normal usage there is no smell as the water is not long enough in the bowl to start to smell.
I have the feeling some think this solution is to simple. Anyway for us it works perfectly alright.
rgds
HanaFe

Hanafe

Just coincidentally I was reading an article about smelly toilets in an old Practical Boat Owner this morning and the content was relevant to your idea.

The writer did a small experiment to test if seawater really does break down under certain conditions and produce the smelly hydrogen sulphide.

He stored seawater in number of plastic bottles. Some were dark plastic and some clear (since there is a suggestion that the smell is more likely to come when the light can get to the water through clear pipes). He also stored some for a day, a week and longer. He also put some in his engine compartment to add constant heating up.

Interestingly, every bottle that he opened, whatever he did to them, was smell-free. Surprising eh?

He then speculated about why he has smells. And his supposition is that the smell is from the smallest particles of human waste that just stays in the system maybe at pipe joins or in the gap near rubber washers etc. He suggests that they, mixed with sea water, combine to make the smells (over time). He said that on the heads that are used regularly, he doesn't experience the smells, and when leaving for any protracted period without use, it is important to flush the toilets as much as possible to clear any waste.

My thoughts are that maybe Hanafe, you have part of the answer with your extra valve on the outlet side. However, it still doesn't make sense to me that the smell only comes when the toilet is flushed after several days without use, because then the fresh water is introduced from the rinse side. But the smell is coming from the dirty side, shich is supposed to be flowing away from the toilet. Puzzling.

Looks like the smelly marine toilet is still one of the great unsolved mysteries in my life.

Cheers guys

Garold

[paulrack]

Hi Garold

I cannot complain about one weekend missed sailing. I am very lucky in that I am 10mins by car to my boat. After your 80 miles I know appreciate my situation!

Brent I will look out for you on the water, was your boat on show last year?

Cheers
Paul

[bman]

A couple of issues:

Water pooling under the refrigerator cabinent and leaking onto the floor at the salon entrance. Looks like this is condensation from both the fridge and freezer. Has anyone else had this problem? Does anyone know how to remove the fridge and freezer as it appears to the writer as well as the local lagoon dealer that the cabinet was built around the fridge and freezer. If I remove the freezer I will likely move it under the helm station in the cockpit. Of interst there does not appear to be a drain tube connecting to the freezer or freezer so that when you defrost the water has no where to drain.

Second - what is the concern expressed by Lagoon about sailing only on the headsail when going downwind. I friend owns a leopard 380 and advises that he sails downwind on the headsail alone regularly. My experience has been that unless you are flying a Genaker (lots of fun - flew if for the first time last week) the headsail is blanketed by the main and you might as well furl it. Sailing on the headsail alone would be so simple>

Bruce

[Garold]

Originally Posted by bman

A couple of issues:

Water pooling under the refrigerator cabinent and leaking onto the floor at the salon entrance. Looks like this is condensation from both the fridge and freezer. Has anyone else had this problem? Does anyone know how to remove the fridge and freezer as it appears to the writer as well as the local lagoon dealer that the cabinet was built around the fridge and freezer. If I remove the freezer I will likely move it under the helm station in the cockpit. Of interst there does not appear to be a drain tube connecting to the freezer or freezer so that when you defrost the water has no where to drain.

Second - what is the concern expressed by Lagoon about sailing only on the headsail when going downwind. I friend owns a leopard 380 and advises that he sails downwind on the headsail alone regularly. My experience has been that unless you are flying a Genaker (lots of fun - flew if for the first time last week) the headsail is blanketed by the main and you might as well furl it. Sailing on the headsail alone would be so simple>

Bruce

Bruce

I have no idea why one cannot sail without the main because, like you, I find that sometimes it would be the best option. But the manual on our boat seems to give pretty firm instructions that when the jib is out, there must always be some main. And generally, you seem to reef by lessening the one then the other (so that they sort of are reffed in unison).

No idea why, but it seems like that's the way it is.

Cheers

Garold.

PS, I think that we have drain at the back of our fridge which joins to a simple pipe which goes straight down. We don't have a freezer. But I blieve that Peter has one on his L400. You will find him from an earlier post. Unfortunately we won't be visiting our L400 for few weeks so I can't check my recollection.

[paulrack]

I think it depends on how the boat is rigged. I have double spreaders and two sidestays on each side and can fly just a headsail. I am sure a rigging expert would be able to explain it better

[YOGAO]

The reason for sailing with the main up at all times is to help balance the sail plan and by extension, balance the forces on the mast. Without a backstay, there is little or nothing to counteract the forces pulling the top of the mast forward when you only have a headsail up.

For most sailing where you are in light winds, the sidestays coming off the swept back spreaders are sufficient, but as the wind pipes up the forces on the mast increase and it could get "out of column" and then bad things happen.

Fair Winds,
Mike