400: Lagoon 400

[deane]

Hi Lazell and others,
Have been following this never ending thread with interest as we are looking to buy a L400 when our property sells in Cairns. Was very excited when I read you were around Townsville. Are you calling into Cairns on your way past. Would really like to meet you for a chat if you are. Left a phone number on your trip sailer blog page.

[lazell]

Originally Posted by paulrack

Hi Lazell

Are you using your bridle and letting enough chain out to make sure it is the bridle holding the boat?

Yes we are using the Supplied Bridle which is longer than the boat wide and we are letting out 4 - 5meters after the bridle.

I think in most places we anchor it is between 2 and 5meters deep and we normally let out between 30 - 40 meters

[lazell]

Will call once we are in TVL but your welcome to come down and have a look. Will be in Tvl until end of Dec

[hanafe]

We do not experience any unusual spin or speed on anchor on our Lagoon 400. I am just typing this sitting on anchor. We had a wonderfull night. F 4 later F 2 - 3. We are behaving like all the others in the bay. The Tide has more effect on directions. Normaly we put out around 5 times the depth of water plus the bridle.
HanaFe

[deane]

Hi eveybody, have been looking at cats for over three years now. Seawind and Lagoon were my two preferences, but have pretty much decided on the L400. Seems like way better value for money at the current prices and more suitable as a long time live aboard boat.
Yet to see the 400 in the flesh, so to speak, so the contributions from everyone on this forum have been a big help.
Dave thanks for trying to call me from Cape Upstart. Shame the reception was breaking up so badly. Look forward to talking in the near future. I,m sure we will take up your offer to make the 4 hour drive down to Townsville to have a peek at you boat.
Does anyone have any advice about the option of taking delivery in France instead of paying the $70,000A delivery to Australia?
We hope to be ordering as soon as we sell our tropical flower farm so if anyone has a freind looking for a lifestyle and does not want to go sailing (hard to believe I know) then send them my way so I can go sooner please.
Cheers
Deane

[Garold]

Originally Posted by deane

'this never ending thread'

And long may it continue.................!

Well Deane, great that you are reading. Please get involved, post, and whenever you're ready, spend your money and get yourself a Lagoon 400. You're right that they are good value, good compromise for extended stay on board, and they even sail a bit. And if you don't let the snagging list get to you, very enjoyable.

I like mine. No time to use it at the moment. Busy earning money in this dastardly downturn. You know how it is when there's work around at the moment: got to do it because it may not be there tomorrow.

However, back to your question.

Some Lagoon buyers from the UK do collect their boats in France and then they don't have to pay the delivery charge. I think that some of them do this because they then sail on to the Mediteranean. And it saves money. The UK dealer has a good connection for fit out etc in France.

I know that earlier this year an Australian couple who were living in the UK bought a Lagoon 400 to sail back (slowly) to Australia. Not sure about the details but the UK guy to speak to is Graham Laver at Ancasta (the UK Lagoon dealer). You can pick up his details from their website. If not contact me.

I guess that my point is, that it is do-able. Even if you don't speak French. If you use a French dealer then it will be difficult.

Also, as far as I am aware, if you sail it away from Europe within a certain (short) period of time, you will not have to pay VAT (tax) and maybe when you get back to Aus you will only pay import tax on the value at that time, which should on paper be considerable less. Just a random thought but maybe worth researching.

Cheers

Garold

[hanafe]

Hi Deane,

as long as you want to start your world cruise in France it is an option to take her over in France.
If you plan to use your boat more less in Asutralia only, I do not see it as an option. As it takes far too long and the boat is heavily used already after going half way round the world. Maybe you even need to get a new set of sails after such a long delivery. As well all the extra saftey equipment you need and in case you need partly delivery crew to give a hand, is adding up a lot of costs. You really need to calcualte detailed. To safe that money you are maybe even better off to buy a second hand from your region after the first guy did the snagging list (you are so right Gerold).

HanaFe

[peterp]

Hanafe has a good point re the transport cost saving versus how much resale value is effected, the saving may be cancelled out by the reduction in resale value, high engine hours etc, however if one wanted the experience of sailing halfway around the world then resale is irrelevant.
Garold, re what have we been doing, well early days yet and summer is just around the corner, I have been mainly just enjoying the craft on day sails, learning how to handle the craft and simply getting to understand all the systems, fine tuning the bits a pieces, and fixing the odd thing that doesen’t work as it should nothing major so far, although yesterday I could only get one of the three burners on the gas stove to stay alight, changed the gas tank thinking it may be running out but made no difference, have you or any other L400 owners experienced this glitch? Any input most welcome. Overall we love the craft everything we had hoped for and more, it sails well, motor’s well, has that solid safe feeling and yet very agile, easy to walk around on.
At the moment like you I have to pay attention to business so just have the odd weekend at the minute but really enjoying our 400 more and more. Regards Peter

[hanafe]

Peter,
we experience the gas stove proplem as well once in a while, but I guess it is quite common on all boats. What we have to do is to close the valve again. Take off the regulator, put it back on the gas bottle and open the valves. Than it is working fine. It looks like sometimes it is not building up enough pressure in the hose right away.

We also can use the boat during weekends only in the moment, but we have the best time of the year. Just this weekend sunny, a bit cool (24 degree C) F 5 - 6 and that's what she wants. Saturday we run down wind in a 140 degree angle with full sail up in a true wind of 20 - 25 knots. She was doing 9 - 10 knots constantly and was asking for more sail. Later I regreted that I did not put up the kite. She would have been even faster. Too lazy while double handed only! Sunday 5 - 6 on the nose. All the way back. That is definetly not the strenght of a cat. A lot of milage for little ground making.
Enjoy your weekends.
HanaFe

[peterp]

Thanks Hanafe, yes the gas does not seem not to have enough pressure, or the pipes are blocked, but that seems unlikely, I must point out this has only just happened has been working fine up to now, I have contacted the dealer this morning hopefully he may come up with a solution, if not I will try your suggestion, seems a bit of pain to have to do that though. Sounds like you had a great sail, best speed I have seen so far was 8.2 sog on a very pleasent afternoon, we will have to get one of those parasails to turn it into a hot rod, or on second thoughts may not as it may spill my glass of red.
Regards Peter

[Garold]

Peter, we noticed in our Lagoon 380 (last boat) that on cold days, the gas flow would be slow, especially if the tank level was low.

And equally confusing, later the same day, it was fine again!

We concluded that on early mornings and late chilly evenings the gas may be affected.

Just a thought.

Hanafe, you have raised my target for next years cruising with your speedy sailing. I think that I put up too little sail and am maybe a bit frightened by all the warnings in the manual about having too much sail up. Well done to you buddy.

Cheers

Garold

[deane]

Thanks for the input guys. Quite happy to spend a season or two in the Med before a slow run back to Aus via the Americas. Only problem we miss Asia. Hmmm, might have to just keep going!!
Garold you mentioned having to leave Europe in a short time to avoid taxes. Do you know if you can sail to UK for a while then back into Europe and the med.
You were also right about reduced duty and GST value in aus on return.
Vicsail Aust told me they issue a valuation certificate based on second hand value for customs if you take a couple of years or more to get back. They also send a guy over to France at their expense for a week to do delivery and orientation on the boat.
Regards
Deane

[Garold]

Originally Posted by deane

Thanks for the input guys. Quite happy to spend a season or two in the Med before a slow run back to Aus via the Americas. Only problem we miss Asia. Hmmm, might have to just keep going!!
Garold you mentioned having to leave Europe in a short time to avoid taxes. Do you know if you can sail to UK for a while then back into Europe and the med.
You were also right about reduced duty and GST value in aus on return.
Vicsail Aust told me they issue a valuation certificate based on second hand value for customs if you take a couple of years or more to get back. They also send a guy over to France at their expense for a week to do delivery and orientation on the boat.
Regards
Deane

Deane

Sorry but I am no expert on this but am aware that many people paln carefully to take full advantage of the rules. Your dealer should be able to ge tthe info if youcan't find it. Since VAT is soon to be 20% in the UK I look at any opportunity to avoid it with envy. I am sure that you don't have to leave Europe straight away but I believe the time period for staying before it is liable is limited.

Imagine formulating a plan so that the cost of your trip is met by the reduction in tax and delivery costs on your boat. The thought is making me smile even now!

I am not sure that it would be the most effective plan to do the UK from a boat. From W. France you would have to sail north and then back the other way later to the Med (retracing the same ground). This is tricky sailing too through some very tricky tidal gates and hoping for good weather windows. Check the tidal ranges along the route.

To see most of the UK it would seem better to do it on land because the worthwhile bits are located all over the UK. To sail round the UK would be a huge undertaking in often unpredictable weather. You could do a few months in the UK before your boat collection, and then after fitting out in W. France, head SW towards Portugal then either round to the Med or across to the Canaries for an Atlantic crossing. Better weather that way too.

All the above is obviously just my opinion but may be worth some research on your part.

Cheers

Garold

[Garold]

Deane

I just randomly copied this from a website I was sent to by google when searching 'yacht VAT avoidance'.

Not sure how reliable but looks interesting if true.........

The VAT Basics: Here are the realities of EU VAT administration as we’ve come to understand them so far.
1.The EU has established a VAT tax scheme that in general provides VAT liability for boats purchased in or formally imported into all EU waters.
2.Concurrently, the EU code provides for relief from VAT liability for up to 18 months (Article 562(e) as referenced above) when the boat is owned by non-EU residents and where the boat will subsequently be removed from EU waters (Article 561).
3.We understand that this 18 month period can be extended for up to six months (maximum total: 24 months if, for a period of time, the boat is inactive, laid up and/or the crew leave the country). Speak with the local Customs folks in the country where you are considering the use of this ‘held in bond’ process.
4.EU legislation omits any reference to how long a vessel must remain outside the EU in order for the vessel’s “VAT Clock” to be restarted and for the boat to enjoy another 18 month period of VAT relief. (Note that this means there is an absence of a guideline, which in the world of officialdom is different than an affirmative declaration about what constitutes an acceptable absence from the EU).

So do some searching. It looks worth it.

Cheers

Garold

[D&D]

Originally Posted by lazell

I think in most places we anchor it is between 2 and 5meters deep and we normally let out between 30 - 40 meters

That's a lot of chain for that depth, unless you're expecting some pretty heavy weather of course. The traditional rule-of-thumb would suggest more like 4x depth for a normal (reasonably protected) anchorage. The length of the chain may (?) contribute to the sensation of swinging a lot, as well as of course the normal windage associated with cats; the latter may also be somewhat more pronounced with the L400 because of its prominent freeboard...?