420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

[ess105]

What's the source of the picture Don? Have you been actually told something by anyone?

[ess105]

Don,

Sorry to hear you're not having a good experience. Remember this though. This is not the first time a Lagoon has been late. I also somewhat doubt that owners have been able to find eachother and share information in this way before before a boat is launched. This may be something to do with the demographic of the people attracted to the L420 but as far as I can tell, no other preproduction boat has as much attention as the L420. You can read this anyway you like but I am genuinely sorry you're feeling this way.

Just a different thought Don. Are you an early hull number? If you are, your dealer has more than a few bucks (5 0's worth) riding on you bailing out given how much these boats have soared in value.

Steve

[DtM]

Is the black just a carpet on a particular boat?

[Biaha]

Hi to all,
Cat man do, is your boat at Samson's marine?
Hey Don, I really liked the new wood, brighter, Oak.
And I agree with you the picture don't look good the floor.
But in person is very nice, is synthetic Wenge (darker wook)
It's like a dark brown (close to dark cedar)

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Biaha

Hi to all,
Cat man do, is your boat at Samson's marine?
Hey Don, I really liked the new wood, brighter, Oak.
And I agree with you the picture don't look good the floor.
But in person is very nice, is synthetic Wenge (darker wook)
It's like a dark brown (close to dark cedar)

Good lord no, that is about the last place on earth I would build a boat at.

To many diseased boat's there for me.

Dave

[Don K.]

DtM, I wish the black stuff on the floor would only be a carpet. But in fact it is the new design which will be changed at some stage this year and - that is the information we were given - applied to all boats no matter whether you want it (or ordered it) that way or not.

Biaha, since you are somewhat "close" to the factory - as I understand from one of your earlier postings - can you give us any further information on this design? Can it be inspected in an existing boat? Will Lagoon send it to one of the boat-shows coming up? Why does Lagoon change the design even for boats which have already been ordered? People who put down their deposits obviously did so because they liked the boat as it was offered and didn't want to leave it to the factory to choose the interior-design later for them. And once again my question no one answered to me up to now: Is the electrical system now fully working? I would be more than pleased to get an answer on this.

Ess, once again many thanks for your encouraging words. However, I continue to be at least surprised about the way Lagoon is dealing with the situation. You may well be right that they had problems in the past with on-time deliveries; of course one has to expect problems with the new electrical propulsion. But all these are just deficiencies on Lagoon's side which should at least cause Lagoon to compensate these by communicating them with their customers and trying to keep up their customers satisfaction. I would love to see the reaction of Lagoon if we would handle our payments the same way they are treating us...
And what may be the excuse for the change of the design without contacting us beforehand? Ess, I hope you agree, that just because we are only talking about sailing, that should not set normal business-conduct aside - especially since there is some money involved.
How would you react if your Car-dealer would deliver a completely different colour than you ordered?
What is even worse: If they are already treating you that way BEFORE they deliver the boat, what do we have to expect, once they DELIVERED it?...

[Don K.]

Has anyone got news from Quiet Riot, who should by now be a proud owner of one of the first 420ies???

[ess105]

A new timetable was issued by Lagoon at the end of January. Quiet Riot's boat (#11) was delayed by 3-4 weeks but mine, #20, stayed put. This suggests they are turning out the hulls but waiting on something before releasing them from the factory. I'm not aware of the specific cause for this delay. CatCo seem pretty confident in the dates and are busy selling slots on Dignity. I've bought our plane tickets for our 3 week trip in June/July.

Re your ealier mail Don. I agree that my expectations are different to what they would be if I was buying a new car. But this is not a good parallel. I bought into the L420 on the basis of some design goals and some pdfs. I would never do this with a car. I'm not in a position to turnaround and say - hey the wood is not the colour I thought it would be as there were no guarantees of any sort. For the risks I'm taking, I've got a very decent discount. You may be in a different spot - I don't know what you saw when you bought in.

[Biaha]

Hi Don K.
Don I use to leave aboard a Lagoon 410 for 3 years, and I had achance to sail on the 420 #4 in La Rochelle.
If you look at the picture posted here without the authorization of the factory. You will see that it is photoshop colored. and that will not show the real colors and texture.
Unhapply I cannot speak for Lagoon and can't comment on the new finish for the for 420. I did a little research on the net and found the material used for the floor.
My personal opinion is that is really classy, but you know taste is like .. each one has its own.
I don't think there is any boat with this finish yet. I didn't see it do you saw at Miami boat show?
by the way who was there ? How was it? any others Hibrids ?
and I think was a good time to give a change to the colors that were since 1984. Remember 420 = inovation.
When you ordered the boat you probably was told that this is a new launch and things may change on the process of achieving the best results. and you still have the chance to change the colors of the upholstery if you prefer. If you are a future owner you would know the latest news from Lagoon are that the production is runing normal and everything is set up correctly. If not please contact you dealer.
What I see here is a miscomunication between some dealers and their clients. And on the other hand some comunications that don't have a purpose of been here as will not afect most of you that ordered the firsts boats to come out. Do you know your hull number? Are you sure the Lagoons will have a new interior?
Hummmm here lies the question?
If you are about to receive your boat on the next months I could almost bet that you gonna receive the colors and floors that you like so much.
I hope this brings even more hapiness to you great exiting moment of a new delivery.
Remember this a public list there are comunications that are considered private. And for our good they are better to be kept like so we continue receiving them. If they start to fall into the public forums we may loose this privilege. That not may shipyards can offer.
Again this is my own private opinion
Don't take any of my words as offensive. As this is not my intention.
Fair winds to alllllllllllllll

[TonyWest]

Did anyone who went to Miami go out on an L420 demo sail?

I saw the boat go out a couple of times and was curious as to how it went.

Tony

[Oma Dasala]

Tony
The 420 motored out and back with no problems. I was on the second go round and the wind was mostly under 5kts with lots of direction changes. Actual sailing performance was not really discernable.
Charlie

[MikeMak]

Originally Posted by Oma Dasala

Tony
The 420 motored out and back with no problems. I was on the second go round and the wind was mostly under 5kts with lots of direction changes. Actual sailing performance was not really discernable.
Charlie

I too, was on that test sail with Charlie. I think it is encouraging to note that in 6 knots of true wind we were able to sail at 3.8 knots with the gennaker deployed .....and that was in a confused 2-4 foot chop with full tanks and 10 people on board....very encouraging IMHO.

Motoring, the boat was very quiet. Generator noise was barely discernable, and the prop wash and slight electric whine of the motors was all that could be heard....it was a very pleasant, unique experience! There was no diesel odor whatsoever and no vibration to speak of.

Mike.

[Intentional Drifter]

I was on the same test sail as Charlie and Mike (yup, it was a regular 420 pep rally). The fluky wind was a problem and didn't give any of the people on any of the boats a decent idea of how they would sail. There was the St Francis 50 out there flying a big chute and it was barely making headway with that thing popping every which way. (All of the sail boats were trying to stay out of the way of the big stink boats, too.)

Here's a list of my observations of the boat:

1. It is a prettier boat in person than the pictures suggest, but I still wouldn't say it is "pretty", unless you're a fan of the squarish Volvos, in which case you'd love it. I like at least a few curves. The boat is bigger than the photos suggest, though. It is a BIG 42 footer.
2. The feeling of spaciousness in the salon and hulls is very hospitable.
3. Very nice headroom -- I saw 6'5" guys in there who didn't have to slump.
4. The large, single pane Lexan salon windows are very nice for taking in the view. That's right -- Lexan. You do have to watch out how you clean them to avoid scratches, but these things aren't going to crack.
5. The heads are well laid out and quite functional.
6. Most of the plumbing is easy to access and service. Not all of it, but much better than most any other boat I've been on in this class.
7. The forepeaks and "extra" storage area behind the owner's head are spacious and give a lot of storage, as well as a place to put in a work room with work bench, but you have to go on deck to get to them.
8. The berths are quite comfortable and very easy to get into and out of, without having to go over your bed partner.
9. The new bimini supports are much improved and now seem solid.
10. The wide, flat decks are very nice to walk around on, even when things are a bit bumpy.
11. The gull wing nacelle really works. We were going through lots of big power boat wakes and I was down below watching the wave action through the emergency hatch. Cut through it all, efficiently and quietly. Not a slam nor pound.
12. The electrical panel box with removable top is very handy and easy to access and identify all the breakers. The wires are all labeled and traceable to their opposite ends.
13. The lines leading to the helm make a lot of sense, are easy to identify, and have much less friction than you might expect. They did a really good job on these.
14. The overhead window at the helm station is bigger than you might think and actually has a pretty good view of the main, better than I expected.
15. Close quarters maneuvering really is a dream. Easy, predictable "throttle", no "clunk" when shifting "gears", just a quick "snick" and there's your new gear. The helm is light, with decent feel. Very nice to manuever. No "thrills" at the marina, even in very tight spaces.
16. Yup, when motoring the boat is q u i e t. Even when the genset is on, you can be within 3 feet of it and comfortably carry on a conversation without having to raise your voice, at all. Down below, the water running down the hulls is louder than the genset.

Some things I didn't like:
1. The wood frankly is not to my taste -- looks "plasticky". Been told they are changing it and the samples on the website of the supplier do look much better.
2. I was disappointed that there wasn't more storage space in the interior of the boat. At least for passage-making, some modifications would be needed (perhaps turn one of the three separate shower stalls into a "semi-walk-in" pantry). If you're only doing week long or less, then you won't have any issues with this.
3. The silly backless hassock seat in the salon is useless for anything other than at anchor. I've previously commented on my distaste for the thing -- others may differ, but that's my opinion.
4. Running jacklines may become a problem. I didn't see any readily obvious places for them, but I didn't spend a lot of time looking for that. That's going to take some thinking.
5. Do not waste your time or money on their Waeco refrigerator and freezer if you're going to be in the tropics. The insulation is pitifully inadequate for that. Bite the bullet and get something made for the tropics.

ID

[sail2wind]

Great report Drifter. We will be chartering Quiet Riot's boat in the end of June. We were at the boat show in Miami and were very impressed with the spaciousness. Douglas is expecting delivery in mid April.

[pbmaise]

Aloha All,
I have returned from the Miami Boat show more educated and more excited about buying a catamaran then ever. The trip was very worthwhile, as I was able to inspect several boats from several manufactures an speak to factory reps in person. Here is a summary of my findings.

Two manufactures showcased their electric catamarans. They were Lagoon and Leopard. The electric motors of the Lagoon 420 are powered by batteries with a backup single speed diesel Onan generator. This is called a Hybrid arrangement. The E-Leopard is a true diesel-electric system with electric motors powered by a variable speed diesel generator.

On the plus side the Lagoon 420 can motor around on batteries without having to run the generator. The Lagoon can also generate power while under sail and charge up the batteries conserving fuel. Sounds great except for five big problems.

1. Having batteries and equipment between the generator and the electric motors means for every HP output from the generator you only get 0.56 HP down at the electric motors.
Reference: Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories.
2. The batteries weigh a lot and will require replacement after a few years.
3. When the boat is running the AC for cooling or the reverse cycle for heating the generator must be running. I.E. You can’t power the HVAC off the batteries.
4. The constant speed generator consumes fuel at a constant speed and the Lagoon rep was pushing for the larger generator. All surplus electrical generation by the generator is lost.
5. According to the Leopard rep, the oil on the generator should be changed every 100 hours. The rep claimed that is per manufacturer recommendation. If you run the HVAC a lot, that means an oil change every 5 to 10 days.

The extra fuel the Lagoon 420 generator will consume while powering the HVAC system, or when motoring with depleted batteries, will dent the fuel savings obtained from generating power while under sail. The degree to which the electrical power plant design will hurt Lagoon 420 fuel consumption will depend on operating habits. If the HVAC is run frequently and motors are run for hours at moderated speeds the fuel consumption of the Lagoon 420 will be high.

The key difference with the e-Leopard is they based their design on a more fuel efficient variable speed generator. It is coupled closer to the electric motors. It is a true diesel-electric system by OSSA POWERLITE®. Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories. There are four big advantages to this route:

1. No intervening heavy battery banks means higher fuel efficiency.
2. Lower fuel consumption during moderate loads and while running HVAC.
3. Oil change is recommended every 500 hours.
4. The weight of the generator is about 1/2 that of the Onan. I looked at that Onan at the Miami boat show and the very first thought I had was that thing has to weigh a ton. I was about 1/2 right. It over 1/2 a ton.

Clearly to me, the power plant of the e-Leopard was a far better choice. However, the e-Leopard isn’t a perfect boat. The sloping main salon means ½ of the salon area is too short for a person of my height to stand upright. I also hit my head in the cabin areas. Since I intend to live aboard the boat I eventually buy this represents a real problem to me. I would feel more closed in by being excluded ½ of the boat.

If Lagoon can be convinced to abandon the hybrid approach and switch to a true diesel-electric system they would have the best of both worlds.

Lagoon also had on display a Lagoon 440. Besides being larger, the helm is located way up high where you can easily see over the main salon. Additionally all the sheets are presented directly in front of you all nice and neat. A new Lagoon 440 is out of my price range however, a Lagoon with a few years on it would be in my range for two reasons. The owner would have purchased it before the Euro went through the roof so his purchase price would have been much lower. Also there are the initial years of depreciation. Another compensating factor is a used Lagoon may very well be tricked out with more equipment. Specifically I found a used Lagoon with a washing machine and water maker.

The surprise of the show for me was a boat manufactured by Dean. The Dean 441 was very impressive. Additionally, unlike Lagoon, they made it clear that they were willing to customize a new boat to suit my needs. For example I am convinced I want 4 foot lighting grounding strips on both hulls for freshwater sailing. I am also thinking of getting a diesel heating system for when it is too cold for reverse cycle. Everything for Lagoon meant after market contractor work. I just feel more comfortable having modifications done in the factory particularly when through hull items are involved.

Dean can be found at this link:

Dean Catamarans - Specifications of DEAN 441

Another item I really liked about Dean is the shower was separate from the head. I’ve never liked the idea of having a shower in the head. Truthfully, I don’t remember which boats also had this feature. Another small item I found important to me is the size of the kitchen sink. Alternately in the case of the Lagoon 440, an outdoor sink looked like a great idea too. I think the Lagoon 440 intends this sink for cocktails, however, I liked the idea of using it for cleaning fish. Yeah, call me an odd ball. I hope to catch some fish while sailing and read up on suggestions how to do it well.

Dean didn’t discuss any plans to have a diesel-electric version of their boat. However, based upon the hype I think all manufactures must be thinking about it.