420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

[fastcat435]

I am sorry Sailvi767 No intention at all to hijack any thread I still feel the effort of Lagoon is great and should continue , it is the way to go into the future.
If the 420 can actually do 6 knots on one motor it should probably do around 7.5 on 2 motors full speed that is around hull speed for the 420 and not bad for 2 x 13 Kw motors.

[LtBrett]

Lagoon 420 Review

I just spent a week on ESS105's boat, so I thought I'd add a little more real world color to this thread. Let me begin by saying that I'm a fan. I chartered Waypoint, the 420's electric predecessor last year and have been devouring any information I can get on hybrid technology. After a week onboard, I'm still a fan. As with any boat, there are tradeoffs. Here is what I observed:

The good:
-She was one of the most striking boats in every anchorage, drawing more than her fair share of stares.
-High bimini top gives an open, airy feeling and the illusion of a much larger yacht.
-Cavernous interior is without equal in her size range.
-Helm is not isolated from the action.
-Plenty of seating both inside and out.
-Plenty of fuel and water capacity. 4 Adults used 1/2 the fuel onboard and refilled the water once during a week's use.
-Pretty well balanced with just a touch of weather helm.
-Electric winches for linehandling and for the dinghy.
-Single handing is very easy.
-The boat was very clean and ready to sail.
-No hull slapping in anything less than a 10 ft wave.
-Excellent storage.

The quirks:
-Very under canvassed. 420’s have been bashed in this respect, so let me elaborate. Sailing to Anegada with 15kts wind and 3 to 4 ft seas 60 deg on the starboard bow, we were making 5 to 6 kts. A Lagoon 440 zipped past us luffing her jib. We paced the monohulls. She pointed ok for a cat, tacking through about 100 deg. Another day, I tried for a max speed run with wind 25 kts gusting to 30 kts running with quartering 4 to 6 ft seas. We sailed for roughly 19 miles like that, jibing from broad reach to broad reach (heaven). She held about 9 kts, or about 8 kts regenerating up to 15 amps per motor. She peaked out at 10.8 kts. I think I could have coaxed another knot out of her, but I didn’t want to risk breaking anything. Under similar conditions last year, Waypoint, a Lagoon electric 410, held 10.5 kts, peaking at 13.4. For tradewind cruising, this should be a relatively easy fix, calling for a bit more canvas up front.
-A bit under powered. Flat calm motoring yields 6.5 kts at 75 amps per motor. 75 amps per motor proved to be the highest current the generator alone can support, without tapping the batteries. This translates to 5.4 kw or just over 7 hp. Motoring into 25 kts of wind and 6-8 ft seas, Dignity managed 2 to 3 kts. I would not want to have to motor off a lee shore in a storm. Note that the motors were not developing anything near their rated power, so this should be solvable with the current motors.
-Helm effort is a bit hard. Again, wouldn’t want to pilot her through a storm.
-All tank level indicators and the wind direction indicator are out of calibration. The tanks (stbd fuel and both water tanks tested) showed ¾ tank for a long time, then quickly went to empty.
-There is no definitive break between motoring and sailing. I don’t think this is a bad thing, just something that requires getting used to. If you set the throttles such that Dignity pushes a little going up a wave and recharges going down, you have to adjust the throttles for every speed change. Otherwise you either argue with the generator that wants to auto-start or you have too much prop drag. An interesting aside, I wonder what would happen if a hybrid sailboat is involved in a collision where right of way is in question. Will she ever be considered under sail?
-Recharging in anything under 20 kts of wind doesn’t seem worth it. The recharge current is tiny and is quickly wiped out if Dignity hits a wave and slows, causing the propeller to push.
-Low speed torque is surprisingly weak. I had a hard time twisting her bow into a 25 kt breeze. I had to use rudder along with a full ahead/astern throttle twist.
-The water noise coming off the hulls is noticeably loud.
-The generator is pretty loud, especially in the master stateroom. This seems to be due to resonance. On the topic of the genny, we used 60 gal of diesel. We motored or motorsailed about 12 hours, and ran the genny for five of our seven nights. Consumption seemed reasonable.
-The battery charge percentage meter is just about worthless. Go with the voltmeter.

In summary, the Lagoon 420 is a beautiful yacht, and does what she was designed to do quite well. I am just fine with the idea of cruising with a big, heavy cat. I’ll take the tradeoff of being a knot or two down to other cats for having tons of room and creature comforts. This tradeoff isn’t for everyone, but I’ve requested Dignity for charter next year.

Brett

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by LtBrett

Lagoon 420 Review
I just spent a week on ESS105's boat, so I thought I'd add a little more real world color to this thread....
Brett

Brett thanks for the excellent analysis of the Lagoon 420's strengths and weaknesses.

Having sailed my own Lagoon 420, Octopus (hull #52), for over 5,000 sea miles (UK to Grenada via Gib, Morrocco, Canaries) since September 2007, I can confirm most of the strengths and weaknesses you identified. Many of the weakness are likely to be resolved in the G2 upgrade that Lagoon are applying to all launched boats this spring and will be applied to all boats built this year.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

The quirks:
-A bit under powered. Flat calm motoring yields 6.5 kts at 75 amps per motor. 75 amps per motor proved to be the highest current the generator alone can support, without tapping the batteries. This translates to 5.4 kw or just over 7 hp. Motoring into 25 kts of wind and 6-8 ft seas, Dignity managed 2 to 3 kts. I would not want to have to motor off a lee shore in a storm. Note that the motors were not developing anything near their rated power, so this should be solvable with the current motors.

The G2 upgrade should address this issue. Lagoon have been quite specific about the improvements in efficiency and performance that can be expected with the upgrade to the control systems and associated software.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

-Helm effort is a bit hard. Again, wouldn’t want to pilot her through a storm.

This fault is not apparent on Octopus, so I assume that there is a problem with the steeering systems on Dignity.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

-All tank level indicators and the wind direction indicator are out of calibration. The tanks (stbd fuel and both water tanks tested) showed ¾ tank for a long time, then quickly went to empty.

Octopus has had similar problems with fuel and water tank indicators, but our wind indicator has been very reliable and accurate.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

-There is no definitive break between motoring and sailing. I don’t think this is a bad thing, just something that requires getting used to. If you set the throttles such that Dignity pushes a little going up a wave and recharges going down, you have to adjust the throttles for every speed change. Otherwise you either argue with the generator that wants to auto-start or you have too much prop drag. An interesting aside, I wonder what would happen if a hybrid sailboat is involved in a collision where right of way is in question. Will she ever be considered under sail?

The G2 upgrade promises to enhance the controls, giving better feel and feedback.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

-Recharging in anything under 20 kts of wind doesn’t seem worth it. The recharge current is tiny and is quickly wiped out if Dignity hits a wave and slows, causing the propeller to push.

I agree that recharge hardly seems worth it at windspeeds of less than 20 knots. This is especially true in a 420 heavily loaded for cruising (we have 4 tons of equipment and supplies on board). At lower wind speeds the motor control paraphenalia and associated cooling and ventilation fans eat up most of the power generated. We sail with the mode set to 2 (All Off) in lower wind-speeds. I'm hopeful that the G2 upgrade will improve the recharge performance.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

-Low speed torque is surprisingly weak. I had a hard time twisting her bow into a 25 kt breeze. I had to use rudder along with a full ahead/astern throttle twist.

I agree the 420 becomes unbalanced if there is insufficient canvas forward, but have never had any problems manoevring in harbour under motors alone during which I virtually ignore the rudder and use ahead/astern to spin the boat.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

-The water noise coming off the hulls is noticeably loud

We find it fairly quiet apart from in the forward berths when heading into a seaway.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

-The generator is pretty loud, especially in the master stateroom. This seems to be due to resonance.

We find the generator fairly quiet and sometimes have difficulty detecting whether it is on.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

On the topic of the genny, we used 60 gal of diesel. We motored or motorsailed about 12 hours, and ran the genny for five of our seven nights. Consumption seemed reasonable.

Consumption seems reasonable rather than outstanding. Lagoon say the G2 upgrade will improve fuel efficiency.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

-The battery charge percentage meter is just about worthless. Go with the voltmeter.

The method of monitoring battery state will be changed in the G2 upgrade.

Originally Posted by LtBrett

In summary, the Lagoon 420 is a beautiful yacht, and does what she was designed to do quite well. I am just fine with the idea of cruising with a big, heavy cat. I’ll take the tradeoff of being a knot or two down to other cats for having tons of room and creature comforts. This tradeoff isn’t for everyone, but I’ve requested Dignity for charter next year.

That's a fair assessment. An extra knot or two would occasionally be nice, but more often than not we are seeking to slow down rather than speed up. We want to sail comfortably and safely rather than fast and furious. Extra canvas would improve sailing performance, but it may make it less manageable and less safe. So the current trade-off works for me.

Chris
L420, Hull 52, Octopus
St Davids Harbour, Grenada

[LtBrett]

Originally Posted by Octopus

We sail with the mode set to 2 (All Off) in lower wind-speeds.

I guess this generation of electric propulsion allows that. You'd cook something if you turned your motors off while underway in the previous generation.

As for helm effort and wake noise, these are not necessarily problems, just points of comparison with other boats I've sailed. The low speed torque issue was only apparent with 25 kts of wind pushing the bows. It should be remedied by the G2 upgrade. The generator isn't particularly loud, but rather resonates in its otherwise empty enclosure. Loaded with gear, the problem may well disappear.

As an aside, if the G2 upgrade brings the L420 up near the performance achieved in Waypoint, you guys are in for a treat. Electric motors coupled with big wheels can really shove a big cat around. I could walk Waypoint sideways--a feat I could not duplicate on the 420.

Brett

[ess105]

Brett - as with all my guests, your feedback is welcome. A number of the items I will look at when we're aboard Dignity in Feb. Some of your comments, such as the heavy helming are unique but the overall jist of what you are saying seems to be very much in line with the feedback I have received from my guests - with one notable exception.

The G2 upgrade Chris mentions is something to look forward to. I've even heard hints of a G3 upgrade although there are no specifics. This is one of the fun things about owning a modular boat - it gets better over time.

It's been a while since we heard from Chris. He's brought his wife, six kids and 2 additional crew (and the 4 tons of gear) over the Atlantic in his 420 and is now bumming around the Carib. Congrats to you sir.

[ess105]

This you have to see.

The Shorts *Click “Read More� to See Movie

Short compilation from Sea Si, Lagoon 420 #42 during her recent ARC crossing.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by ess105

This you have to see.

The Shorts *Click “Read More� to See Movie

Short compilation from Sea Si, Lagoon 420 #42 during her recent ARC crossing.

Sort of cool I guess.
Obviously made by someone much younger than me.
It is jerky and cut up. No scenes are long enough to get a good look at anything.
Oh well.
Probably just me.
PS I hate quick time player and it's invasive software too.

[Sail_Nutter]

I have been tracking the conversations on this thread on-and-off for the past 2-3 months as my girlfriend and I are currently in the market for a new or nearly new catamaran to cruise the Med and Caribbean over the next 12-18 months.

My other half is a non-sailor (but a travel and water enthusiast) so the Lagoon range popped up on our radar screens due to the quality and amenities of the living arrangements. However, the performance (particularly of the 420 Hybrid) seems to be a hot topic generating some strong feelings. I had the opportunity to test sail a 420 Diesel a couple of days ago in Fort Lauderdale.

I thought the group would be interested in the results as the sailing conditions were very light winds (5-10 knots) with a moderate swell left over from the front that had passed a day or so earlier: Ideal to test the light air performance for a boat that is suffering from a reputation of being under canvassed and overweight.

Performance Under Engine:

The model was equipped with the standard 40hp diesel option. Running both engines at 2,200 RPM got us a steady 6 knots in flat water and no wind, boosting RPMs to a more respectable 2,900 RPMs we steadied out at 7 knots, again in flat water with no wind.

The wheel did feel stiff under power, but nothing that needed fighting against, and the boat was surprisingly responsive for such a fat and heavy beast.

Sailing Performance:

We had a "base" rig - no spinnaker or gennaker option, just the standard main and genoa. Winds varied from 5-6 knots to 8-9 knots with one gust of 11 (whooooo! hahaha). We primarily sailed on an apparent beam reach (so apparent wind on the beam) - true wind obviously deeper than this.

At the super light end of the wind spectrum (5-6 knots) we were doing between 2.5 and 3.5 knots. A small increase in wind to 8-9 knots gave us boost to around 4.5-5 knots boat speed and in the gust to 11 knots we reached a giddy 6 knots.

We tacked easily with no stalling through 100 degrees. We were able to steer consistently at 45 degrees to the apparent wind before luffing up, although we could have got a bit closer with a bit more attention to sail trim.


Motion:

In the chop that was generated by the fleet of buzzing power boats coming out of Lauderdale inlet, we did seem to yaw fore-and-aft, more than I was expecting. Although a 45ftish monohull ahead of us was bouncing around pretty wildly. The motion was definitively improved under sail. We returned through the same chop with the main up, and that dampened the yaw significantly.

Conclusion:

You aren't going to win any races in this boat - either under power or sail. Neither are you going to be cursing the clock as the miles drop from under the keels. Besides, given the cavernous interior and all the mod-cons, who wants to hurry up anyhow?

If I was to get a 420, I would probably spring for a bigger overlapping Genoa (bring it up to 130% from the standard 110%), and definitely get the optional Gennaker. A bit more power up front would make a big improvement on averages. The Jury (and my wallet) is still out on the idea of the tridial spinnaker.

[aztanglefoot]

Hi,
I am going to be chartering a Lagoon 420 in May and would like to know more about the 120v outlets. How many and where they are located.

Thanks

aztanglefoot

[ess105]

If noone answers this I'll be able to answer in about 3 weeks. I will be photographing every inch of Dignity when we're down in the BVIs soon.

[MikeMak]

I am fairly certain of the following locations:

1) One in each stateroom typically up high in the middle of the hull or bulkhead - in the aft staterooms it is on the outboard hull - in the starboardside forward stateroom it is on the aft bulkhead facing the bed.

2) The Lagoon 420 specification brochure dated 09/2007 states there is one in the galley and one in the salon...I know for sure there is one at the end of the upper galley cabinet (by the door) next to the light switch (they look the same as the cover of the outlet looks like the rocker switch)....I don't know if Lagoon considers this location the galley or the salon.

On the early models, there was some criticism that there was no outlet for the cabinet at the other end of the galley most suitable for a microwave....whether this has been changed and is now the galley location, I don't know.

4) There is an optional outlet for a TV when ordering the TV antennae...I'm uncertain of the exact location but I believe it is on the starboard side upper cabinet to the right of the stairs leading into the hull (next to the aft bulkhead).

There are no outlets in any of the heads and none at the nav station...I intend to install in these locations in addition to outlets in the staterooms and owners hull for TVs...and perhaps another outlet in the salon.

Hope this helps.

Mike.

[sailvi767]

I just got back from 8 days in the BVI. There are more Lagoon 420's showing up. I spoke with several groups on charter. Most loved the interior layout and space. One person said the interior layout was the best he has ever seen. The exterior space however some mentioned as not as good with the cockpit drawing several compliants. Several mentioned the poor access to the water and one group of divers would not charter the boat again feeling the steep scoops were dangerous with dive gear. Getting in and out of the dingy is not easy and the scoops will take a pounding if the boat is in charter from the dingy. Sailing performance reviews were mixed. Some liked it and others were not as happy. One boat had a generator failure and was without any power after 30 minutes which lead to a tense situation. Generator reliablity on charter boats is always a huge issue and they are much more fickle then normal propulsion engines. The stop and start cycles are going to make this a real issue. The rig has been mentioned many times. It is a small rig. You can compensate to a extent with sail changes. One thing however that caught my attention was that even for a rig that size it appeared fragile with only a single side shroud and single spreader rig. I would check carefully with Lagoon before using a chute with the rig and would carry it only in lighter winds. I think the boat will be a success in charter because of the interior space if the reliability of the electrics can be maintained. Electrics in general are a huge pain on charter boats in the BVI and are far more important on this boat. It will take a few years to see how it works out.

[sailvi767]

I just got back from 8 days in the BVI. There are more Lagoon 420's showing up. I spoke with several groups on charter. Most loved the interior layout and space. One person said the interior layout was the best he has ever seen. The exterior space however some mentioned as not as good with the cockpit drawing several compliants. Several mentioned the poor access to the water and one group of divers would not charter the boat again feeling the steep scoops were dangerous with dive gear. Getting in and out of the dingy is not easy and the scoops will take a pounding if the boat is in charter from the dingy. Sailing performance reviews were mixed. Some liked it and others were not as happy. One boat had a generator failure and was without any power after 30 minutes which lead to a tense situation. Generator reliablity on charter boats is always a huge issue and they are much more fickle then normal propulsion engines. The stop and start cycles are going to make this a real issue. The rig has been mentioned many times. It is a small rig. You can compensate to a extent with sail changes. One thing however that caught my attention was that even for a rig that size it appeared fragile with only a single side shroud and single spreader rig. I would check carefully with Lagoon before using a chute with the rig and would carry it only in lighter winds. Looking side by side at other cats in the size range the rigs were much more robust. I think the boat will be a success in charter because of the interior space if the reliability of the electrics can be maintained. Electrics in general are a huge pain on charter boats in the BVI and are far more important on this boat. It will take a few years to see how it works out.

[ess105]

Originally Posted by MikeMak

I am fairly certain of the following locations:

1) One in each stateroom typically up high in the middle of the hull or bulkhead - in the aft staterooms it is on the outboard hull - in the starboardside forward stateroom it is on the aft bulkhead facing the bed.

2) The Lagoon 420 specification brochure dated 09/2007 states there is one in the galley and one in the salon...I know for sure there is one at the end of the upper galley cabinet (by the door) next to the light switch (they look the same as the cover of the outlet looks like the rocker switch)....I don't know if Lagoon considers this location the galley or the salon.

On the early models, there was some criticism that there was no outlet for the cabinet at the other end of the galley most suitable for a microwave....whether this has been changed and is now the galley location, I don't know.

4) There is an optional outlet for a TV when ordering the TV antennae...I'm uncertain of the exact location but I believe it is on the starboard side upper cabinet to the right of the stairs leading into the hull (next to the aft bulkhead).

There are no outlets in any of the heads and none at the nav station...I intend to install in these locations in addition to outlets in the staterooms and owners hull for TVs...and perhaps another outlet in the salon.

Hope this helps.

Mike.

Now I'm feeling bad. Just had a blast of a week on Dignity and totally forgot to map out the sockets so I've got to go on memory. It does seem that there are differences between different hulls so be prepared for some surprises.

In addition to those mentioned by Mike, on Dignity we have a socket at the Nav Station and there are two on the cupboard by the sink. My wife says there was one in the owners bathroom.

[ess105]

For the owners & fans - here is an interesting article : Cat wins eco trophy