440: Lagoon 440 Performance ?

[Gpolar]

I think lagoon 440 is what I want to buy. But I really don't know what the real price for used are. As in the Internet all are offering price.
Any real transecting price. ?


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[2Wind]

440's - as to price, there are many many vairiables:
1. Age and condition - this could vary price by as much as $100K
2. Location - generally cheaper in the US and Caribbean, higher in Europe and highest in the Pacific Australia and NZ.
3. Tax status - owing or paid
4. Quality, number and age of sails - This could affect price by up to $25K+
5. Hardware - eg Full house of electric winches might add $10K
6. Equipment like AC, Water Maker, Electronics, Tender - could vary price by $50K or more. LiPO4 batteries are like gold. Generators are expensive.
7. Engines - remember these are worth north of $35K to replace.

So a cheap unit at the bottom of the price range might be low $300's but its not going to be the same boat as the well equiped boat with new triradial cut hydranet sails with a wardrobe of down wind sails, that's in great condition lying somewhare convenient to your location and fully imported tax paid.
I thought I bought my boat cheaply, but spent $85K in the first year on sails (20K), unexpected engine and saildrive repairs, batteries, electronics and solar upgrade...the list goes on. Still very satisfied mind you! These unexpected costs apply regardless of what brand you buy and in some ways, they are only "unexpected" to you, because you were optimistic and blind to the certainty of uncertainty.

[impi]

Originally Posted by Gpolar

I think lagoon 440 is what I want to buy. But I really don't know what the real price for used are. As in the Internet all are offering price.
Any real transecting price. ?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Yes have to say 2Wind makes some good points there. A further comment I would make to this is that it depends too on Owner version or Charter Version and more importantly has it been a charter cat in a charter fleet or is it a vessel owned and cared for by one owner.

It seems from many comments by people seeking out good 440's that the really good conditioned one's are now few and far between.

My take on any cat I would be looking to purchase is to:

a. check out the condition of the boat and its structural integrity (I would want to purchase new sails when I buy a boat anyway - would do that through Ullman sails in Cape Town - they are very reasonably priced)

b. check out the motors / sail drives / generator and all other mechanical

c. check out the additional features from manufacture (there is a list of extras that get ticked and added to the initial base price.

d. check out the additional equipment and features fitted by the owner. One would be surprised how the value of this adds if you are to tick the list, shop for these features and have them installed. Also, having much of this installed means getting out to sea with less time spent doing additions.
these would include - charging systems - battery and electrical systems - air conditioning - Fuel transfer pumps - laundry features - watermaking - Navigational systems such as AIS transponders, radar, plotters - Deck gear and layout for all sail types - electric winches or manual - lighting (led) - communications such as SSB and/or Iridium satellite - safety gear (including the life raft) - Dinghy and outboard engine (pull start / elec start) - awnings - anchor type and sizes and chain length and size - and so on, and so on

e. look at the registration particulars of the vessel and the impact on taxes / import and so on - you may want to keep it registered off-shore.

f. Ask the owner if he would take you out for a weekend to 'feel the boat' - perhaps arrange a fee with him for such an event to be deducted from the sale price if you purchase the boat or to be kept by him if you do not.

When we purchased our 440 we were not ocean going cruisers and had no concept of what it took to get a boat ready for a life at sea. We spent an additional 2 years fitting the boat (a brand new boat) out for world cruising, and even then I was there keeping an eye on things daily.

As for Lithium batteries and so on - the pricing has come down dramatically and will continue to. Many cruising sailors we know of out here have now been using this brand quite successfully - Lithium Prismatic Batteries

One could literally write a book on this - but the point is to understand the base price for a good condition basic catamaran and then to evaluate the real value TO YOU in how equipped the boat is for cruising comfortably.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by impi

As for Lithium batteries and so on - the pricing has come down dramatically and will continue to. Many cruising sailors we know of out here have now been using this brand quite successfully - Lithium Prismatic Batteries

All good stuff there from both impi and 2wind...

At the risk of a bit of self-interested thread drift, any L440's out there using Lithium batteries? We'll be needing new batteries before long and past enquiries noted the importance of the batteries actually fitting their allotted space on the vessel. We have the factory-installed 6 x 140Ah gel setup currently.

[44'cruisingcat]

Generally lithiums are much smaller than lead acid of similar capacity. And you should need less in lithium. Shape shouldn't matter too much as they don't have to be upright either.

[impi]

Originally Posted by D&D

All good stuff there from both impi and 2wind...

At the risk of a bit of self-interested thread drift, any L440's out there using Lithium batteries? We'll be needing new batteries before long and past enquiries noted the importance of the batteries actually fitting their allotted space on the vessel. We have the factory-installed 6 x 140Ah gel setup currently.

Yeah - we changed from Deep Cycle Exide Gels to 8 x Lifeline AGM's - 210AH each. What a joke that was ... an expensive one too! Absolutely, categorically and well qualified to state the AGM's no where near as great as the Gels! We will definitely be doing the Lithium thing as per the link at Lithium Prismatic Batteries

I checked out some yachties who installed them and was really surprised at how little space they occupy. Of course you already know this, but since one can use 90% of the capacity one needs less to have the same result as other batteries. Our mates are telling us the voltage holds incredibly well - always 13v and more.

The trick of course is to make sure each battery maintained to the same charge level and the alternators need looking at. I believe Balmar have devised one that can push the BULK rate all the way and take the heat - the ones we have (Balmar 150's) would burn out unless the temperature sensors are attached and then it becomes more of a scenario of 'protecting the alternators' as opposed to the batteries (Even if the batteries are wanting more the alternators drop off to cool).

[dirkdig]

Those batteries look good for the $$$

Sealed gel 150ah were $400 aud each when i replaced them in 2012


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[2Wind]

I've just replaced my 3 X N200 FLA's with 6 X 135 AH 12V Gels @ A$220 each - 810AH for A$1320. About 75% space and weight saving compares to the N200's not to mention being 810AH Vs 615AH.

I looked long an hard at the LiPO4's but for my application and use profile (weekend sailor with occasional 1-2 week stints), I just couldn't justify the price differential. Even if they only last half the time, I'm still beter off.

I note that all those Prismatic batteries are 3.2V, so to get my 12V 810AH with LiPO4s that's going to be 16 X 200AH 3.2V - being three times the price.

Hhhhmmmm.

[D&D]

Thanks for the responses gentlemen...

[impi]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

I've just replaced my 3 X N200 FLA's with 6 X 135 AH 12V Gels @ A$220 each - 810AH for A$1320. About 75% space and weight saving compares to the N200's not to mention being 810AH Vs 615AH.

I looked long an hard at the LiPO4's but for my application and use profile (weekend sailor with occasional 1-2 week stints), I just couldn't justify the price differential. Even if they only last half the time, I'm still beter off.

I note that all those Prismatic batteries are 3.2V, so to get my 12V 810AH with LiPO4s that's going to be 16 X 200AH 3.2V - being three times the price.

Hhhhmmmm.

Hi 2Wind - are you are taking into account that on Deep Cycle Gels one uses 30 - 40% of the total capacity - on Lithiums one can use 90% (occasionally 100%), so the calculation is on the usable capacity as a 'number of batteries to purchase'.

For example we have 8 x 210AH batteries in Impi = 1,680AH bank, however, we use 30% of that before re-charge = 504AH useable.
If I applied the same scenario to your bank 6 x 135 = 810Ah and at 30% usable = 243AH for $1,320.00. Theoretically cost is $5.43/AH usable

Lithium batteries (300AH @ $360 ea x 4 to make 12v - actually 12.8v) at 90% capacity = 270AH for $1,440.00. Theoretically cost is $5.33/AH usable.

In this scenario not only are the lithiums now cheaper per usable AH but the advantages far exceed those of other type batteries and here the weight savings are incredible!

Of course some will say we can extend Gels to 40% usable capacity, however in the tropics this shortens the life time somewhat.

I stand to be corrected on this - however, we have spent our dues on batteries and I cannot find a better option now than the Lithiums given the affordability of them now.

[impi]

Originally Posted by impi

Hi 2Wind - are you are taking into account that on Deep Cycle Gels one uses 30 - 40% of the total capacity - on Lithiums one can use 90% (occasionally 100%), so the calculation is on the usable capacity as a 'number of batteries to purchase'.

For example we have 8 x 210AH batteries in Impi = 1,680AH bank, however, we use 30% of that before re-charge = 504AH useable.
If I applied the same scenario to your bank 6 x 135 = 810Ah and at 30% usable = 243AH for $1,320.00. Theoretically cost is $5.43/AH usable

Lithium batteries (300AH @ $360 ea x 4 to make 12v - actually 12.8v) at 90% capacity = 270AH for $1,440.00. Theoretically cost is $5.33/AH usable.

In this scenario not only are the lithiums now cheaper per usable AH but the advantages far exceed those of other type batteries and here the weight savings are incredible!

Of course some will say we can extend Gels to 40% usable capacity, however in the tropics this shortens the life time somewhat.

I stand to be corrected on this - however, we have spent our dues on batteries and I cannot find a better option now than the Lithiums given the affordability of them now.

Ok - Sorry 2 Wind - having to come in with an edit here as I just realised you are working AUS $ where the Lithiums are US $.

So now the scenario works out as follows:

Your Gel batteries AUS $ 1,320 for usable cap of 243Ah before re-charge = AUS $ 5.43 convert to US $ = US$ 4.24 / usable AH before re-charge

Lithiums as per above = US$ 5.33/AH usable before recharge.

The Lithiums have a larger usable 'tank' than the gels which is why I am working it back to cost per AH.

The question now is whether the additional US $1.09 / AH is worth the benefits of Lithium over Gels.

I quite like the fact that Lithiums can take a bulk charge all the way - no more absorption or float modes so they top up a lot quicker than Gels or Agm's. On Impi we have an overkill charging system which is GREAT during the bulk cycle but is wasted thereafter.

[2Wind]

Brent,
I really appreciate you taking the time to recalculate the costs for we here in the "never never".

I can see your logic.
Ive got to be honest and say that its pretty hard to find really accurate information out there on "real world experience" as opposed to "theoretic opinion", but guys like you are actually going to find out for the rest of us. Thanks.

Not withstanding you excellent analysis, our needs are very different. My boat sits on a charger more than 6 out of seven days. As I head out for a day's sailing 95% of my cycles are going to be well less than 10% as I'm out sailing in sunshine (600W solar). In fact most days I come home full. Only very occasionally, I'll need a deep discharge to perhaps 50% when sailing up the coast overnight and into a cloudy subsequent day etc. Whether I get 10 years as per the sales blurb, or 5 years as I suspect - who knows. I'm sure, when living aboard as you do, the case for the LiPO4s is very sound.

Love your blog BTW. Your living my dream!

[impi]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

Brent,
I really appreciate you taking the time to recalculate the costs for we here in the "never never".

I can see your logic.
Ive got to be honest and say that its pretty hard to find really accurate information out there on "real world experience" as opposed to "theoretic opinion", but guys like you are actually going to find out for the rest of us. Thanks.

Not withstanding you excellent analysis, our needs are very different. My boat sits on a charger more than 6 out of seven days. As I head out for a day's sailing 95% of my cycles are going to be well less than 10% as I'm out sailing in sunshine (600W solar). In fact most days I come home full. Only very occasionally, I'll need a deep discharge to perhaps 50% when sailing up the coast overnight and into a cloudy subsequent day etc. Whether I get 10 years as per the sales blurb, or 5 years as I suspect - who knows. I'm sure, when living aboard as you do, the case for the LiPO4s is very sound.

Love your blog BTW. Your living my dream!

Lovely reply - I was quite hoping to convince you to buy Lithiums so you can tell me if they work as well as I am suggesting they do ... and yes, I quite get the difference between live aboard verses having a boat at the dock charging much of the time. I remember those days and yes, 'battery issues' were not a priority on my list. Now of course with hot nights and wanting to run the air conditioner without the use of the generator in our bedroom nights, it has become quite important to us.

I certainly don't have first hand experience and am quite open to being 'shot down' here before I spend a lot of moola on batteries ... but honestly, the cost of 8 x Lifeline AGM's, the added weight and the dismal performance is disappointing - I have to believe there is a better solution.

I like the fact that (from what I am being told) the Lithiums hold their voltage way above and beyond the AGM's and Gels - that is what I am looking for.

I had to smile when I read your comment,' ..guys like you are actually going to find out for the rest of us'. Yes, I guess I have learned a few expensive lessons basing much thought on theoretical opinion and especially when I swapped out the Deep Cycle Gels for AGM's - was that ever a bad decision - oh man

I think the expensive part with fitting Lithiums now will be the stuff that goes around it like the alternators and so on - I would have to replace for heavier duty to cope with bulk charge loads.

Anyway, I guess we digressed a bit on the op's post here, but I am sure we Lagoon 440 owners would like to have great electrical systems - I remember one in the BVI's who had full on Lithium batteries - was trying hard to convince me it was the way to go! I think his 440 was called SV Catatonic or something like that ... he was quite 'forward thinking' in the systems he put to his boat.

[impi]

Could I please pose a question here to fellow 440 owners ...

We are wondering who have fitted folding props - which type you have fitted and how much reduction in 'drag' you have experienced as a result.

I am looking at the MAX PROP VP Range (Feathering) - I believe they are also very good in reverse situations.

Anyone with experience on these?

[D&D]

Originally Posted by impi

Could I please pose a question here to fellow 440 owners ...

We are wondering who have fitted folding props - which type you have fitted and how much reduction in 'drag' you have experienced as a result.

I am looking at the MAX PROP VP Range (Feathering) - I believe they are also very good in reverse situations.

Anyone with experience on these?

Nope...no help here. sorry. Fixed blades on CatNirvana...not overly concerned with speed -- She sails along very nicely as it is, as you would know -- but very concerned with minimal maintenance and KISS. Lotsa difficult experiences from racing days with folding props on OPB (Other People's Boats).