General Info: Lagoon delamination or osmosis does anyone had experience?

[boatpoker]

Maybe this will help ...

[Sand crab]

Here's how they put the unit in.
1978 Sabre 28 Repower to Saildrive

[colemj]

Yes, that is what I was explaining. However, I think your key went through the thin fairing plate, not the hull.

How do you interpret the round ring in your IR photo showing a narrow ring of thin around the drive hole with thick behind it in all directions.

And how do you explain that the hole is clearly on the fairing plate that is added to backup the rubber membrane? There is no denying that that small raised plate is not part of the original hull layup - it is provided with the drive and engine for that purpose.

The gelcoat is missing on that plate because the rubber final fairing piece was glued on with 5200. No surprise there.

I'm not arguing with you or defending Lagoon - I just interpret what you have shown differently from my experience with saildrive installations.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Here's how they put the unit in.
1978 Sabre 28 Repower to Saildrive

Well now, there you go! That key did not go through the Lagoon hull.

Mark

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by colemj

Yes, that is what I was explaining. However, I think your key went through the thin fairing plate, not the hull.

How do you interpret the round ring in your IR photo showing a narrow ring of thin around the drive hole with thick behind it in all directions.

And how do you explain that the hole is clearly on the fairing plate that is added to backup the rubber membrane? There is no denying that that small raised plate is not part of the original hull layup - it is provided with the drive and engine for that purpose.

The gelcoat is missing on that plate because the rubber final fairing piece was glued on with 5200. No surprise there.

I'm not arguing with you or defending Lagoon - I just interpret what you have shown differently from my experience with saildrive installations.

Mark

The key did not go through the fairing plate. That plate had been removed and by the way the plate was much thicker than the hull. Here is the fairing plate or what I previously called the "cover plate".
Apparently a picture is not worth a thousands words

[colemj]

What is the chewed up thing in the second pic? What plate is still attached to the hull? How do you explain your IR image?

I still think you have not found a thin hull there, but rather a void into the hole cut for the mounting bed.

If it is actually "the hull", then it is a purposefully thin layup in that specific small area that Lagoon puts in their mold to cut through for the drive installation. This is also common - the manufacturers know exactly where the engine/drive bed is going to mount and that they will need to cut through it later. Same thing is done for hatch areas, portlight areas, etc.

I will certainly think that hull is very thin if you show me a thruhull cutout with the same thickness.

Mark

[boatpoker]

I have over 200 photos of this issue on the port hull. I did not get to remove the fairing plate from the starboard hull but thermal imaging showed a similar condition but to a slightly lesser degree.

I find it curioius that some of you continue to deny the evidence but Beneteau paid for repairs without any questions whatsoever after seeing the same photos.

[colemj]

Not denying anything. Your first photos were of very close-up shots of a pick in a hole. I didn't even have the perspective of where the location was. Your second gave that perspective, but showed a common installation of a saildrive.

Nowhere have you stated that Lagoon were involved, or what the actual problem was that Lagoon was fixing. Was the problem a hole in a thin hull? Is the problem a saildrive?

I'm still unconvinced that the hull is that thin, and a bit suspicious that you are dribbling out information after making a blanket statement - let alone avoiding answering some simple clarifying questions. Come out with it - what problem exactly is Lagoon fixing, and is hull thickness a major concern with them? And is this a warranty fix on a new boat, or are they trying to avoid a lawsuit for a wide-range manufacturer defect?

Again, I'm not defending anything or anyone and have no interest in Lagoon at all.

I'm just exercising my natural curiosity and analytical skills.

Mark

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by colemj

Not denying anything. Your first photos were of very close-up shots of a pick in a hole. I didn't even have the perspective of where the location was. Your second gave that perspective, but showed a common installation of a saildrive.

Nowhere have you stated that Lagoon were involved, or what the actual problem was that Lagoon was fixing. Was the problem a hole in a thin hull? Is the problem a saildrive?

I'm still unconvinced that the hull is that thin, and a bit suspicious that you are dribbling out information after making a blanket statement - let alone avoiding answering some simple clarifying questions. Come out with it - what problem exactly is Lagoon fixing, and is hull thickness a major concern with them? And is this a warranty fix on a new boat, or are they trying to avoid a lawsuit for a wide-range manufacturer defect?

Again, I'm not defending anything or anyone and have no interest in Lagoon at all.

I'm just exercising my natural curiosity and analytical skills.

Mark

I don't think I can make it much clearer, yes the hull was too thin.
the questions I did not answer ... yes it was a six month old boat and it was repaired under warranty.

I really don't want to take the time to post 200 photos so if this does not satisfy you then I'll just have to live with it.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Yes, as previously stated there is a moulded bed bonded to the inside of the hull. As clearly shown in the photos the cover plate has been removed and the key is inserted into the hull within the area of the engine bed.

There is a limber hole in that bed on the interior and constant water flow from that limber hole was the reason for the investigation.

Sorry, I completely missed this post when reading and responding and only saw the drawing post below it.

Now I understand what the problem was you are investigating. Yes, I agree that the only way water could get into the boat is if the hull was breached underneath the mounting pan. The hull is definitely too thin here, and this is a Lagoon construction problem.

I wouldn't say the entire hull is that thin, or that this is more than a one-off issue. It does speak ill of quality control because that is something that a production manager should have been on top of.

Mark

[Lagoon4us]

Saw a similar thing here in Marmaris today on the hard, the boat had been dribbling water into the void area which in turn leaked into the engine room.

Exactly same spot and it turned out to be over enthusiastic removal of the sika that was used to bond the cover plate in the past. SOMEONE had ground the area flat to remove the hardened SIKA then drilled a hole into the thinned glass to hold the cover plate whilst the new SIKA set.

Remedy is to re-lay new glass into the recess which is what the yard are presently doing.
This area as boat poker shows has the pre moulded VOLVO cofferdam glassed in place behind it.

Cheers

[downunder]

Not on your vessel, Frank ?

Cheers

[2Wind]

Late last year when my 440 was out for routine hull maintenance, we saw continues weaping from this same area. Ultimately we found several inadequately repaired screw holes up into the engine mount "cofferdam" (as Frank has described it). In addition there were one of two cracks as well. We drained a large amount of water out of the voice within the mount, but no water had entered the boat per se. We had speculated that the factory fitted rubber saildrive boot might have come loose and someone during prior ownership had decided to screw it in place - hemce the screw holes. Boot and screws were gone by the time I took ownership. Missed at prepurchase survey. As stated above, the solution was to reglass the area after adequate debridement ensuring that we had found all defects. One issue was that the saildrive mounting bolts on the Yanmar SD40 pass to nuts "glassed into" the cofferdam and with ingress, they had become somewhat corroded and could not be undone, spinning out of sight and access. We had to bore upwards from beneath to access. This too was repaired and reglassed. All good now. Retirement deferred whilst I pay off for the repairs.......HaHa.

[Lagoon4us]

No mate, this particular area when they build them has the VOLVO or YANMAR cofferdam supplied glassed to a thinned area that is moulded with a recess to accept the fibreglass/plastic plate that's shown in Boatpoker's photo's.

When boatyards have to replace this plate as it gives access to the leg for easy withdrawal they quite often grind this flange to (a) Remove the old Sika and (b) to prep the area for the new plate. As 2wind correctly says the dickheads then drill holes and screw the plate on whilst the SIKA sets.

Normally they leave the screws in place for someone else to deal with next time, now inside the cofferdam are the backs of the engine mounts ie the undersides and once water gets into this area a very slow annoying seeping of water is noticed from beneath the mounts.

None of this is a structural problem as the 'box' cofferdam is heavily glassed inside and out over a coving during construction. The fibreglass recessed flange is there only to allow a loose fitted cover plate to fit in to give some clean water flow around the leg.

Funnily in the Chesapeake we saw one on a 440 i surveyed where a 'Blue Swimmer Crab' had gone in their as a young nipper and outgrew his cave, photo attached, you can see his claw hanging out.

A storm in a teacup but an interesting one to be careful of and don't allow holes to be drilled in this thinned area.

Cheers

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

No mate, this particular area when they build them has the VOLVO or YANMAR cofferdam supplied glassed to a thinned area that is moulded with a recess to accept the fibreglass/plastic plate that's shown in Boatpoker's photo's.

When boatyards have to replace this plate as it gives access to the leg for easy withdrawal they quite often grind this flange to (a) Remove the old Sika and (b) to prep the area for the new plate. As 2wind correctly says the dickheads then drill holes and screw the plate on whilst the SIKA sets.

Normally they leave the screws in place for someone else to deal with next time, now inside the cofferdam are the backs of the engine mounts ie the undersides and once water gets into this area a very slow annoying seeping of water is noticed from beneath the mounts.

None of this is a structural problem as the 'box' cofferdam is heavily glassed inside and out over a coving during construction. The fibreglass recessed flange is there only to allow a loose fitted cover plate to fit in to give some clean water flow around the leg.

Funnily in the Chesapeake we saw one on a 440 i surveyed where a 'Blue Swimmer Crab' had gone in their as a young nipper and outgrew his cave, photo attached, you can see his claw hanging out.

A storm in a teacup but an interesting one to be careful of and don't allow holes to be drilled in this thinned area.

Cheers

Say, you recently replaced your thru hulls, right? I don't know anyone who does that without putting a caliper on to measure hull thickness and taking a pic or two. Wanna post those pics if you've got em? It would end this whole debate ( if you are right and Lagoons are built with a substantial layup).