42: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by mjuneau

I think that is a bit over dramatic.

Some people keep pushing the same barrow.

Same was said about the L400, but out on the water in cruising trim, in the same wind, on the same tack, with similar sails, my L400 cruises at a very similar speed to Seawind 1160's and 1200's, Leopards of similiar size, Lagoon 380 and many other cats
There are several threads giving lots of hard data re performance of various Lagoon models. These clearly demonstrate that while Lagoons are not racing machines they still cover the miles at respectable speed.

Perhaps the other brands are overloaded when all the cruising gear is onboard?

PS. Lagoon 39 is 38' 6" LOA not 37'.

[Factor]

Difference between pushing a barrow and being honest about boat design.

EG Weight, Lagoon could make the thing way way way lighter, and then you could carry way more payload, making the thing heavy is not any value to anyone.

I mean seriously, are we to believe that heavy is good in multihulls? That small mainsails are good?

As to performance, comparisons are fraught at the best of times and indeed meaningless most of the time who knows whether each boat was "trying" who knows whether each boat was loaded etc, - I understand that, but the most meaningful comparisons can be drawn when we at least know that boats were in similar conditions at similar times with a similar interest, i.e. a cruising race. AT Hammo the cruising division included:

AMELDEC Leopard 43
BUNDALONG Lagoon 620
CAP ROCAT Catana 59
CERULEAN Seawind1000xl
CHARADE Catana 521
KESTREL Jenkins 12.7 metre
MISTY SEA Montebello 12.5 metre
SALACIA Lightwave 38
SASKIA Crowther 13m
SAVANNA Lagoon 40
SERENITY FP SABA50
SNAP Fontaine Pajot 12.8 m
STORM BAY Chamberlin 14m
SUITE 2 Lagoon 52
TALISKER Seawind 1160
TROPICAL SUNSET Seawind 1160
VIVACIOUS Seawind 1160 Cat

The results over the best 5 of 6 races: (the figure at the end is the summary score - lowest score wins)

1 TALISKER 16.0
2 CERULEAN 20.0
3 MISTY SEA 20.0
4 KESTREL 23.0
5 SNAP 24.0
6 BUNDALONG 26.0
7 STORM BAY 29.0
8 VIVACIOUS 33.0
9 TROPICAL SUNSET 35.0
10 SALACIA 36.0
11 CAP ROCAT 50.0
12 AMELDEC 52.0
13 SASKIA 70.0
14 SERENITY 72.0
15 SAVANNA 77.0
16 CHARADE 86.0
17 SUITE 2 90.0

Again, who knows the respective abilities of the crews etc, for example I do know that the winner - Talisker - is a regular WAGS racer in Brisbane, and that the guy who owns the montebello doesn't race much I don't think and that Kestrel is also always out doing WAGS etc. And remember even on multis waterline length counts, all things being equal a 60 foot boat should be a lot faster than a 40 foot boat.

But if fat heavy and little mainsail means nothing, what happened above.

I get some people don't care if their boat sails well, what I don't get is that they then say it sails well.

Anyway, I got a $1000 for any Lagoon 39 that sail around me on almost any other cat under 12 metres. 1160/1250 Seawind - Leopard 40 - Lightwave 38 - FP 41/40, any Schionning, to name but a few that I have sailed on and that would easily outperform the 39

Hell I will even take on a 39 in Lagoon's 380 and expect to easily go quicker

and YES I have sailed a 39.

[Lagoon hound]

Thanks for posting the hamo results,

Finally, some actual real data that shows the benefits of a light cat, I get sick and tired of reading posts where people claim sailing performance in 20 knots on a condomaran , any boat sails well in 20 knots , let see how they sail in 10 knots of breeze please.

Originally Posted by Factor

Difference between pushing a barrow and being honest about boat design.

EG Weight, Lagoon could make the thing way way way lighter, and then you could carry way more payload, making the thing heavy is not any value to anyone.

I mean seriously, are we to believe that heavy is good in multihulls? That small mainsails are good?

As to performance, comparisons are fraught at the best of times and indeed meaningless most of the time who knows whether each boat was "trying" who knows whether each boat was loaded etc, - I understand that, but the most meaningful comparisons can be drawn when we at least know that boats were in similar conditions at similar times with a similar interest, i.e. a cruising race. AT Hammo the cruising division included:

AMELDEC Leopard 43
BUNDALONG Lagoon 620
CAP ROCAT Catana 59
CERULEAN Seawind1000xl
CHARADE Catana 521
KESTREL Jenkins 12.7 metre
MISTY SEA Montebello 12.5 metre
SALACIA Lightwave 38
SASKIA Crowther 13m
SAVANNA Lagoon 40
SERENITY FP SABA50
SNAP Fontaine Pajot 12.8 m
STORM BAY Chamberlin 14m
SUITE 2 Lagoon 52
TALISKER Seawind 1160
TROPICAL SUNSET Seawind 1160
VIVACIOUS Seawind 1160 Cat

The results over the best 5 of 6 races: (the figure at the end is the summary score - lowest score wins)

1 TALISKER 16.0
2 CERULEAN 20.0
3 MISTY SEA 20.0
4 KESTREL 23.0
5 SNAP 24.0
6 BUNDALONG 26.0
7 STORM BAY 29.0
8 VIVACIOUS 33.0
9 TROPICAL SUNSET 35.0
10 SALACIA 36.0
11 CAP ROCAT 50.0
12 AMELDEC 52.0
13 SASKIA 70.0
14 SERENITY 72.0
15 SAVANNA 77.0
16 CHARADE 86.0
17 SUITE 2 90.0

Again, who knows the respective abilities of the crews etc, for example I do know that the winner - Talisker - is a regular WAGS racer in Brisbane, and that the guy who owns the montebello doesn't race much I don't think and that Kestrel is also always out doing WAGS etc. And remember even on multis waterline length counts, all things being equal a 60 foot boat should be a lot faster than a 40 foot boat.

But if fat heavy and little mainsail means nothing, what happened above.

I get some people don't care if their boat sails well, what I don't get is that they then say it sails well.

Anyway, I got a $1000 for any Lagoon 39 that sail around me on almost any other cat under 12 metres. 1160/1250 Seawind - Leopard 40 - Lightwave 38 - FP 41/40, any Schionning, to name but a few that I have sailed on and that would easily outperform the 39

Hell I will even take on a 39 in Lagoon's 380 and expect to easily go quicker

and YES I have sailed a 39.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by mjuneau

the weight seems to follow the size almost ... the 39 seems too heavy, 380 too light
380 --- 7,26 t / 16008 Lbs
39----- 11,673 t / 25739 Lbs
400 ----10,348 t / 22817 Lbs
42----- 12 t / 26 460 lbs (probably be more like 13t)
450 ----15,50 t / 34178 Lbs

mike

The 12 t displacement is tonnes as in metric tonnes.

FWIW the L440 is just about the same weight. But it has 1300 sq. ft. of sails versus about 1000 for the new 42. The old TPI 42 has about 958 sq. ft. All these specs are on the Lagoon site linked above.
SA/D just doesn't lie.

[careka]

i belive this a topic about the new 42 ?

[Sand crab]

Yup. Just comparing.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Lagoon hound

Thanks for posting the hamo results,

Finally, some actual real data that shows the benefits of a light cat, I get sick and tired of reading posts where people claim sailing performance in 20 knots on a condomaran , any boat sails well in 20 knots , let see how they sail in 10 knots of breeze please.

Yep, plenty of data for Lagoons' performance in light winds already posted on this forum. Just try a search.

Not sure what one race result shows? A Catana 521 is slower than a Lagoon 40?
One Seawind 1160 is faster than a Lagoon 620, but two aren't? That anyone who races a Lagoon must have a sense of humour? That Hammo is is snobby haunt for the rich that most cruisers avoid? I'll go for the latter.

I'm talking about CRUISING not racing. If you wish to race, fine, buy a racing boat. Yes, of course it will be lightweight in relation to its size. If you decide to go cruising on it, however and load it accordingly you will rapidly lose the advantage of lightness, and it will no longer be fast. In fact, it will probably be slower than a well designed cruising boat.

Lagoons have always been designed by VPLP, who coincidentally have designed MOST of the world's leading racing multihulls. Collectively, that company has probably forgotten more about multihull design than all us forum experts put together. (Notice the collective pronoun.) For Lagoon they design a high volume, weight carrying cruising boat. That's easy to sail.

Of course, it would be faster if it was made out of lightweight materials. Lagoon uses 19mm ply covered with laminate for flooring. Heavy as lead! Replacing this with lightweight cored composite alone would reduce weight considerably but would add substantially to production cost. The weight stripping exercise becomes less relevant when large weights are then added in the form of cruising gear. So, in a calculation of a lightweight/ high cost versus heavy/ cheap the latter wins and the boat is designed to carry that heavy weight.

For us cruisers the upshot is with a Lagoon we get a reasonably priced boat that has plenty of room and the addition of lots of people, cruising gear, wine, watermakers, gensets, diving gear, compressors, crab pots, etc. etc. won't sink the boat. Nor make much difference to performance. One that when loaded, actually sails better than the forum experts predict.

[BambooSailor]

Tuskie, +1

[careka]

Originally Posted by BambooSailor

Tuskie, +1

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Factor

I get some people don't care if their boat sails well, what I don't get is that they then say it sails well.

Numerous owners have posted cruising performance data on this forum, including myself. Reason? To counter this sort of misinformation.

Originally Posted by Factor

But do you want to sail in under 20 knots of breeze? Cause this thing won't.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by tuskie

won't sink the boat. Nor make much difference to performance. One that when loaded, actually sails better than the forum experts predict.

Two things, no decent multi should sink, and I am not making predictions based on anything other than direc t experience with a range of boats including the lagoon 39 My offer still stands, $1000 is on the table. (I realise thats in the south pacific peso, but its still a fair amount of money for an old retired gentleman)

[tuskie]

"Sink" was shorthand for "waterline raised to the extent that performance is drastically diminished. Bridge deck clearance may be reduced so as to reduce comfort due to wave slap."
I don't do the racing thing and don't have a L39 anyway. Racing cruising multihulls to me is a bit like taking a bunch of SUVs and people movers to a Formula One circuit. Why?
However, I do have a L39 as a neighbour close by at my home port. When I've had enough Vin Rouge and return to land of the SP peso, I'll extend your challenge to the owners. I'll hold the money and ensure that both vessels are "properly loaded"!

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by tuskie

I'll start, or rather spread the rumour from La Rochelle that says that the Lagoon 400's days are numbered. Perhaps not to be replaced.

reading between lines, best boat designers in the world admit that L400 is so good and balanced in its category that cant be improved any more for 40 ft length cat.

[Sos]

Whichever way you look at the performance , one thing you can't deny is that
Lagoon certainly sell a lot of boats even if most of them are to the charter
market. They have got that right!
At the end of the day it's the buyer who decides what is important.
Personally I don't like the way Lagoon have gone and think the
TPI 42 is their best boat but they moved on so they could sell more boats.
It is good there are still different options. The worst thing would be if
they all went down the Lagoon route

[careka]

Here it is. Lagoon catamarans : building, sale and chartering of luxury cruising catamarans