450: Purchasing and Commissioning

[yeloya]

Hi Rolf,

Maybe I couldn't explain myself good enough: I am not against single line reefing at all, just the opposite. FP's don't have it and for my trip to Caribbean I converted the first reef on my Orana to single line. It is certainly much safer and easier.What I was trying to say is that while this feature is "nice to have" on every boat, is a must on 450 because of the boom which is too high. This is probably why all of the three reefs are single line on 450.
Flying bridge has many advantages but is not for me. Said this, if you look at the sales numbers, seems that many people think the way you do..

FP's also are coming with Incidence sails. I am not 100% sure but I believe they are cut horizontal because I don't remember having paid extra for sails.. (we have 13 FP of different models and one 450 in our fleet) The life span for main and genoas are 4-5 years in average on catamarans under 20-25 weeks of charter each year.. (much shorter on monohull's genos and furling mains)

Yeloya

[careka]

Originally Posted by roetter

On my current boat I replaced the horizontal cut main and the genoa within 9 months, as I could not stand the look of the badly shaped sails anymore. I just love aerodynamics too much to look at bad looking airfoils.

Do not compair the sail you got on the Bavaria, to the once you will get on the Lagoon,
A cat has strong sails, and like Yeloya is saying the will last easy for your tripp to Canada, then you can se if they are bad and get new once a lot cheaper then in Europa. but i think they will still be OK.

But do get a Parasailor for the trip over the atlantic.

Geir Ove

[DavefromNZ]

I just sold my Bavaria 39, which I feel was a very good boat and about Jan 2012 we will take delivery of our Lagoon 450. We ordered most of the factory options so will comment on them and the delivery experience after it arrives.

I think it will be a fantastic yacht. My thoughts on a possible problem may be of a significant blind spot when at the helm and the gennaker or even the genoa blocking the view?

Dave

[Dakota450]

Does anybody know what hull number they are on with the 450?

[roetter]

Hi Dakota 450

My L450 - to be built in March - will be hull number 130. Some else here in Victoria has his boat built in December and shipped to Victoria. His hull number is 105 if I remember correctly.
That makes a lot of L450s in a short time. I was last year October at the Annapolis boat show, that I was on hull #2, which had arrived not long before from Europe.

Rolf

[Dakota450]

I was also on hull #2 at the Miami boat show. I love the boat. I'm jealous of you. I don't have the financial means to own one yet or the ability to just go either. I am in Portland Oregon which is not too far from you. I am hoping that in 5 or so years from now I will be very seriously looking as I should have saved up enough to pay cash by then. I don't want any loans. At this pace, there should be plenty of used 450's to look at when I am ready. I chartered a 440 recently and there were a few things I didn't like about it but most of those have been address on the 450. You planning on coming south the the Portland area with yours?(hint, hint)

[roetter]

Hi DavefromNZ

Congratulations on you L450. Is she delivered to NZ or are you picking her up?

I am really looking forward to our L450. We are charting one with friends for two weeks in Martinique starting this week end. I will report back from the experience on that one. Unfortunately, as common for charter boats, she has no gennaker, no spinnaker no water maker, no zircon. Just bare bone. I hope she will have a square to main though.

I love my Bavaria Vision 40. Just my wife does not like heeling and gets scared when gusts change the angle quickly. Without starting a session on mono vs multi, I must also say enjoy the flat ride too for living extended periods on board. For ME (totally subjective) the mono is more like a motor bike for racing or at least more sporty motion, the multi is for living and enjoying drink and food with friends and family. I know there are enough people who have sailed the world in 30 foot monos. I met a few of them. Just not for my wife and me.

On a recent trip across the South Pacific on a 60' Yapluka, we always had our water bottles and glasses on the table. Laptops, phones and cameras would sit at the edge of tables and never slide.

To my biggest and happy surprise, my wife, who always said "You bring the boat across the ocean, and I fly there." has now decided to join us for the Atlantic crossing next year. Surprise, surprise.

Rolf

[roetter]

Dakota 450

I hope you can make it happen sooner that later. We will take at least 2 years to bring our's to Canada, and may never do it. Except, we want to do Glacier bay and the Inside Passage again.

Portland. I used to go down there for model glider flying, not too great as a sailing destination though. So, sorry but unless we have to go in there for repairs, no luck for you.

[Dakota450]

Originally Posted by roetter

Dakota 450

I hope you can make it happen sooner that later. We will take at least 2 years to bring our's to Canada, and may never do it. Except, we want to do Glacier bay and the Inside Passage again.

Portland. I used to go down there for model glider flying, not too great as a sailing destination though. So, sorry but unless we have to go in there for repairs, no luck for you.

Bummer!

[roetter]

Hi Careka

Thanks for the advice. I am looking into the Parasailor. I have a asymmetrical on my Bavaria on a furler, and it is my most used, and most enjoyed sail.

Does anybody have real price comparisons for sails between North America and Europe? Maybe I should have some sails made here and take them with me to Europe.

[Cheechako]

With a gen set and all your 120v appliances, I would just go with a 120v watermaker.

[roetter]

Hi All.

Thanks for all the great input already. I am still considering my downwind sails.

My current most favourite option is this combination:
- Gennaker (105 sqm) - rally more for beam and higher, but maybe to be used over night on down wind reaching as safer than spinnaker.
- plus
- Symmetrical spinnaker (190sqm). Really big, should give good push in light air.
- possible later also a smaller (about 120 sqm) heavier fabric high wind spinnaker, also for night sailing.

I only recently I started looking at the ParaSailor, as I have never seen one in real life.

My experience is in racing with symmetrical spinnakers, and an asymmetrical one on my current mono hull on a Rollgen furler.
I had it initially in a sock, but just sailing with my wife in the fluky winds in our area made us no use it often. Just too much hassle and too unsafe to have one of us on the foredeck with the wind coming up unexpectedly. With the furler I just do it all by myself from the cockpit. It was my most used sail going to Alaska. Great!

There are just two things that I am still concerned about with this setup - on my mono hull.
1. At about 20 knots true going deep to about 160 apparent (without a main) you have to start taking it down. Too much force in the rig and the mono is pushing a big wave.
2. If you go even deeper to reduce the apparent wind, the spinnaker starts oscillation with the mono rolling hard from side to side.

Parasailor
I read in blogs of people going trans ocean carrying their Parasailor in 30 knots true wind on catamarans. That seems a lot. My questions:
1. Is that really true?
2. Are those Parasailors carried in this high true winds maybe quite small for the boat?
3. Does a catamaran (does not roll under sail forces) reduce or prevent the oscillation of the spinnaker and not pose a problem going really deep even with a regular symmetrical even in strong winds?

The opinion that I have gathered so far but I am still trying to verify:
A Parasailor gives you similar speed as a regular spinnaker and is more 'gentle' in its behaviour.

Rolf

[roetter]

Hi Chechako
------------
With a gen set and all your 120v appliances, I would just go with a 120v watermaker.
------------------
And why would I do that?

I figure I can run the 12V water maker anytime I want and do not have to start the genet to make water. This would mean that my solar gives me enough to not have to start the genset. I could also get away with the genet running maybe for 30 minutes pushing 150A into the batteries and run the water maker for two hours pulling 26A.

[impi]

Parasailor
I read in blogs of people going trans ocean carrying their Parasailor in 30 knots true wind on catamarans. That seems a lot. My questions:
1. Is that really true?
2. Are those Parasailors carried in this high true winds maybe quite small for the boat?
3. Does a catamaran (does not roll under sail forces) reduce or prevent the oscillation of the spinnaker and not pose a problem going really deep even with a regular symmetrical even in strong winds?

The opinion that I have gathered so far but I am still trying to verify:
A Parasailor gives you similar speed as a regular spinnaker and is more 'gentle' in its behaviour.

Rolf[/QUOTE]

We looked very carefully at the Parasailor and sailed with one on a leopard catamaran to test it's performance ..... Nice concept, but after speaking to two friends who have sailed across the Atlantic and Pacific with them, we opted for a regular asymmetric. Both friends did not hesitate to tell me to rather stay with the cheaper conventional type sails.
Both friends advised that they are NOT as easy to bring down once the wind gets strong, and also say they are not as robust as the usual sails. One friend had the agent for Parasailor onboard and said he struggled to assist them in bringing the sail in, ending up in the replacement of strings on the para wing section. He claims the sail now takes up space on the boat as they find it a mission to use.
Perhaps their ones oversized (?) and they felt perhaps a 'mini' Parasailor would have better served a more relaxed crossing.

[roetter]

Hi Impi
Interesting.
What size asymmetric do you use?
Did you get your asymmetric from Incidences or someone else?
Snuffer or furler?