110 vs 230 for universal power

[PaulCrawhorn]

Originally Posted by hezi973

It is the shore power pass through and charging I am not sure will be big enough

By passthrough, with the scheme I outlined, the chargers' current flow does not go into the bank at all if the loads are temporarily adding up higher.

But soon as they drop below, then current remaining goes into replenishing your storage.

There should be no "passthrough" direct from shore AC to AC loads, or you are back to having to deal with the 50vs60Hz frequency hurdle.

The total DC current available for loads (via inverters) will be the sum of input from mains (or genset off grid) via the chargers, PLUS whatever wattage your bank will support.

The 48V buck conversion will be a major bottleneck if you keep high amp loads on 12V, as much as possible should be upgraded to the backbone higher voltage

or you need to expand the 12V bank to handle the (hopefully short term) high amp loads.

[PaulCrawhorn]

Originally Posted by hezi973

On the primary grid I am planning to put 2 5k vicron inverter chargers in parallel. This could provide charging and pass through. The secondary grid wil consist of only one 5k inverter. Not enough to provide enough charge vs full energy usage (I could be wrong). For that I may use a separate large charger and a stand alone inverter. Unless I could use the 2 5k inverter charger for charging only without pass through via a manual selector and 2 separate programing. I still need to wrap my head around that and need to get myself familiar with the hardware capabilities and limitations.

Inverter charger are great, but personally I like the simplicity and flexibility of separate devices.

Especially when you need to be 100% sure that nothing is flowing in a given direction, in order to protect that big expensive bank.

Having Combi units may well make handling that issue very complicated.

But, if you are getting a certified Victron shop's wizard to design your system, do follow the advice you'll be paying for.

Bruce Schwab at Ocean Planet would be a very good point to start from, if they don't actually do the work, you can still trust their referrals.

[hezi973]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

Inverter charger are great, but personally I like the simplicity and flexibility of separate devices.

Especially when you need to be 100% sure that nothing is flowing in a given direction, in order to protect that big expensive bank.

Having Combi units may well make handling that issue very complicated.

But, if you are getting a certified Victron shop's wizard to design your system, do follow the advice you'll be paying for.

Bruce Schwab at Ocean Planet would be a very good point to start from, if they don't actually do the work, you can still trust their referrals.

Thank you very much PaulCrawhorn. I am still trying to make sense of this and every input helps! Did you work with Bruce Schwab at Ocean Planet? I called them and they seems to be very busy...

[shimari]

Originally Posted by Messing About

Following. One of the boats I’m considering in the US is wired for Europe. My electrical knowledge is limited to changing 110 outlets, changing 110/220 home breakers, etc. Watching this thread with interest to help gauge my potential, should I buy that boat.

Early on on my boat search, I discounted EU wired boats as too much trouble. I shouldn't have and missed out on a couple of great boats. Owning an EU powered boat, hasn't been a big problem at all.

It isn't a big problem as long as you know what to look for:
-Isolation transformer
-double pole AC breakers
-Expensive or hard to replace equipment, e.g. air conditioning or generator, is dual frequency.
-If you eventually want your outlets to be 120v, then the circuit wire needs to be a minimum of 2.5mm^2
-and a few things I am probably missing

Good luck in your search!

[PaulCrawhorn]

Originally Posted by hezi973

Did you work with Bruce Schwab at Ocean Planet? I called them and they seems to be very busy...

If you find someone offering those services and they aren't very busy, there is something wrong.

Just ask them for referrals within a 12hr drive of you maybe.

Yes I've had several dealings with Bruce, but more relevant are the hundreds of kudos from very well respected members of many forums over the years.

[s/v Jedi]

Here’s my recommendation:

Create two 48V house batteries that are 10kWh each that are normally connected in parallel (each with a main switch and BMS). This will power what you want.

Go big on solar; I have 1,875W and it powers everything incl. watermaker and even some A/C.

For setup check my attached diagram. I recommend to use inverter/chargers instead of separate units because they are more powerful at less cost. In the diagram you can easily force a unit into one role: for inverter unit, switch input breaker to OFF and output breakers ON and for charger switch output breakers OFF and input breaker ON.

You can eliminate the genset and you can add a 3rd inverter/charger. I currently run two in parallel mode; all charging is done by solar or DC-DC converter from the engine mounted alternator.

[CaptTom]

I don't really see the value in two AC systems.

Go DC for all the loads you can; lighting, pumps, fans, etc.

What's left is charging, refrigeration, cooling and a bunch of small appliances like microwave, coffee maker, toaster and yes, if you insist, teakettle.

Plug-in appliances are essentially consumables. Buy whatever works in the system you choose; don't design the system around them unless you're really impatient for your tea.

Which means you pick one system for your installed appliances; refrigeration, air conditioning, cooking. Choose based on where you think you'll be plugged in to shore power the most, and where you might want to sell the boat some day.

While I agree you should go big with solar, a generator adds flexibility and resale value. Again, you've got to choose one system for that.

[goboatingnow]

“Teakettle” always amuses me. Kettle is the term here as it used to heat ( or pre heat ) water for everything including coffee

I use shore power kettles and gas powered as needed. I think the boat has four !

[s/v Jedi]

A tea kettle on an induction cooktop completely obliterates electric kettles. Even on a cheap 1.8kW cooktop it is much faster than the electric kettle but on my 3kW cooktop it is almost 4x as fast.

Another benefit is that there’s no plastic. Stainless steel. You do need special kettles though as most of the old ones aren’t compatible.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0742BGDC4...2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A tea kettle on an induction cooktop completely obliterates electric kettles. Even on a cheap 1.8kW cooktop it is much faster than the electric kettle but on my 3kW cooktop it is almost 4x as fast.



Another benefit is that there’s no plastic. Stainless steel. You do need special kettles though as most of the old ones aren’t compatible.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0742BGDC4...2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

Mind you no auto off , which I find useful

[ejs]

I intended the teakettle comment to lighten up the discussion a bit. I actually call it a billy btw. The euro ones are 2200w vs 1500 for the US ones. My serious recommendation is to pick the voltage you like for the boat, size the inverters accordingly, and only use shorepower to charge. Chargers are usually multi voltage and multi frequency. There isn't much inverter efficiency difference from DC to either AC voltage. I used to have a 110 boat in 230 land and the charger system worked great. There is a small advantage to 230 in that all the cords are thinner and lighter but it really only matters for long extension cords.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by ejs

The euro ones are 2200w

3000w is also readily available if you are in a hurry.

[s/v Jedi]

Fyi: an electric kettle is much less efficient than a kettle on an induction cooktop. My first Google hit shows electric kettle at 71% and induction at 83%.

A big win to switch to the kettle, not just for the environment but also for your house battery

Edit: let me add the citation so this can be verified:-) http://rmpbs.lunchbox.pbs.org/blogs/...to-boil-water/

[noelex 77]

Thanks for the link. That is surprising. I would have thought it was hard to beat a resistive element sitting in the water.

Where does the waste energy go? Heating up the short power cord is the only loss other than the more significant heat lost from the kettle itself to the air and the energy used to convert a small amount of water to steam. These latter loss will be very dependent on the design and insulation in the kettle and the cut off temperature, but surely this loss would be the same for a similar design of kettle on an induction stove?

One rainy day I will have to do some experimentation. We boil a lot of water (for drinks and showers) generally via solar so the efficiency is important. I note the article actually quotes typical efficiencies of 80% (electric kettle) and 85% (induction) so the difference may be hard to pick in practice.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Thanks for the link. That is surprising. I would have thought it was hard to beat a resistive element sitting in the water.

Where does the waste energy go? Heating up the short power cord is the only loss other than the more significant heat lost from the kettle itself to the air and the energy used to convert a small amount of water to steam. These latter loss will be very dependent on the design and insulation in the kettle and the cut off temperature, but surely this loss would be the same for a similar design of kettle on an induction stove?

One rainy day I will have to do some experimentation. We boil a lot of water (for drinks and showers) generally via solar so the efficiency is important. I note the article actually quotes typical efficiencies of 80% (electric kettle) and 85% (induction) so the difference may be hard to pick in practice.

It has to do with the inductive transfer. With induction you have the iron disc in the bottom of the kettle forming the secondary winding, which is much larger than the small ones in electric kettles. Also, I don’t think you have a resistive element… I think the the secondary winding is shorted just like the kettle on an induction cooktop.

I know kettles used to have a cord attached and a heating element inside but I don’t think any were sold for the past 25 years?