110 vs 230 for universal power

[goboatingnow]

A U.K. 230 vac boat will run of US split phase with the obvious risk being a hot negative. The statutory RCBO fitted will of course add a measure of protection to the hot neutral issue.

It can be a temporary solution but not a good long term one

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A tea kettle on an induction cooktop completely obliterates electric kettles. Even on a cheap 1.8kW cooktop it is much faster than the electric kettle but on my 3kW cooktop it is almost 4x as fast.

Another benefit is that there’s no plastic. Stainless steel. You do need special kettles though as most of the old ones aren’t compatible.

What's wrong with a plastic kettle?

Surely if you are after efficiency or saving those wiggly amps, then boiling a smaller kettle without the risk of over filling it will save far more?

I timed the 0.8L plastic 230v, 1Kw kettle and the small camping stainless steel kettle with the same volume of water. Both about 4m 15s or so since I didn't have any means of measuring temperatures at the time. The stainless kettle isn't ideal as it has a rim at the bottom lifting the main base perhaps 1/8" off the induction hob surface. Also I chose the same power so the induction stove matched the electric kettle.

The larger gas cooker burner with the stainless steel kettle came in about 4m30s in comparison, so not much in it.

The big difference though when making tea and we drink a lot of tea, is to boil just enough water. 0.4L will fill two tea mugs which is perfect for the two of us and surprisingly doesn't tip over at sea even going to windward. so a small kettle perfect for saving power.

Pete

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A U.K. 230 vac boat will run of US split phase with the obvious risk being a hot negative. The statutory RCBO fitted will of course add a measure of protection to the hot neutral issue.

It can be a temporary solution but not a good long term one

Every boat cruising the world and connecting to the different power grids simply must have a good isolation transformer. Not only can it make “230” from “120” and “120” from “230” but it also takes care of the safety aspects.

Every boat connecting to power grids it wasn’t designed for without an isolation transformer (having that makes it designed for the foreign grid) takes a risk of damaged systems as well as electrocution and/or electrical fire.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Surely if you are after efficiency or saving those wiggly amps, then boiling a smaller kettle without the risk of over filling it will save far more?

I believe this is probably the #1 factor determining efficiency.

Originally Posted by Pete7

I timed the 0.8L plastic 230v, 1Kw kettle and the small camping stainless steel kettle with the same volume of water. Both about 4m 15s or so since I didn't have any means of measuring temperatures at the time. The stainless kettle isn't ideal as it has a rim at the bottom lifting the main base perhaps 1/8" off the induction hob surface. Also I chose the same power so the induction stove matched the electric kettle.

Stainless conducts and transfers heat well. That's not good when you are trying to keep water hot. Outside of heating too much water, transferring heat away from the water is probably the #2 loss of efficiency.

This is why I believe that a kettle with an internal resistive heating element that is also insulated with a reflective internal coating is the most efficient kettle you can have. 100% of the energy is converted to heat. The only sources of heat loss are typically transferred to the container or convected out the top of the kettle. Kettles like Vektra, etc, don't get hot on the outside because they are insulated so well. Where would any energy loss arise from?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

I believe this is probably the #1 factor determining efficiency.


Stainless conducts and transfers heat well. That's not good when you are trying to keep water hot. Outside of heating too much water, transferring heat away from the water is probably the #2 loss of efficiency.

This is why I believe that a kettle with an internal resistive heating element that is also insulated with a reflective internal coating is the most efficient kettle you can have. 100% of the energy is converted to heat. The only sources of heat loss are typically transferred to the container or convected out the top of the kettle. Kettles like Vektra, etc, don't get hot on the outside because they are insulated so well. Where would any energy loss arise from?

Measure it!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jammer

. . . Build the boat to use the standard where you will be keeping it most often. If you're USA-based, use USA wiring. Then you can get whatever appliances and equipment you need before departure. Functionally, there's no difference, except for a handful of appliances where the European version is higher wattage.. . .

Absolutely.

Do this. Then buy the appliances to suit the boat. Building the boat to suit appliances you haven't even bought yet is crazy.

Thinking about efficiency of 48v to 110v vs 48v to 230v is also crazy -- it's a rounding error of no consequence.

All that being said, the eternal question for world cruisers is how to deal with the power which is other than your home type. The optimum answer depends on the boat and electrical gear, but for an electrical intensive boat like the OP's, the most likely answer is something like:

1. Separate battery charger(s) in the "strange" voltage/cycles.
2. Use the "home" inverter/chargers as inverters to power the boat with "home" power off the DC output of the "strange" chargers, when on "strange" power, in order to get correct frequency.
3. Isolation transformer(s) to convert incoming "strange" power to the "home" voltage.

3. Heavy users like air conditioning, immersion heaters, etc. which are indifferent to cycles (make sure and specify air conditioning which can use either 50hz or 60hz) are wired to be powered directly, not via inverters (or can be switched like that). Separate shore power inlet can be a good idea for air conditioning; use a "Y" adapter where you only get one shore power connector.

So if your "home" power is 230v/50hz and "strange" is 110v/60hz or 220v split phase, then one possible way to set it up:

1. Inverter/chargers are 230v/50hz
2. Battery chargers 110 v (or 220v split phase) on own shore power inlet
3. Isolation transformers on the "home" shore power inlet
4. Immersion heater and air conditioning (and any other high power gear, indifferent to hz) are on a panel permanently on the "home" shore power inlet. Other gear is on a panel powered by either "home" shore power inlet or inverters, switchable with a transfer switch.
5. "Y" connector to connect both "home" and "strange" shore power inlets to a single pedestal connector where you can't have two.

In operation:

1. Where "home" power is available, everything runs off "home" shore power inlet, with transfer switch set to "shore power".

2. On "strange" power, connect both shore power inlets to the strange power (use Y adapter if necessary), switch switchable panel to "inverter", set isolation transformer to step up (or down) the voltage on the "home" shore power inlet to the "home" voltage.

Split phase power complicates this, if you want to use it.

If you want to have one or a few separate outlets for the odd piece of "strange" power gear, then instead of "strange" power battery charger, use a "strange" power charger/inverter, and connect the outlets to the output of this. Or just add a small separate inverter in that power -- if the gear will be small. I wouldn't bother, personally, with either of these -- how hard is it to buy gear in the right voltage/frequency? Amazon delivers almost everywhere.

Some people just use the isolation transformer to get the correct voltage, and dispense with the separate chargers and shore power inlet. Depending on how much frequency-sensitive gear you have or may have in the future, this can be simpler and thus better. This is probably what I would do on my boat, if I'm ever in 60hz-land.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Every boat cruising the world and connecting to the different power grids simply must have a good isolation transformer. Not only can it make “230” from “120” and “120” from “230” but it also takes care of the safety aspects.

Every boat connecting to power grids it wasn’t designed for without an isolation transformer (having that makes it designed for the foreign grid) takes a risk of damaged systems as well as electrocution and/or electrical fire.

Amen!

[paul2884]

Originally Posted by ejs

Once you use a 230 volt electric teakettle you will never want 110 again.

Really cant see the point of 110v unless you work in construction. 3kw kettle isn't practical on 110v, save on the heat produced by the cables and use less copper with 230v. Most things are 50 or 60hz so cant see an issue with that.

[Networker]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

I look at this another way.

The DC storage House bank / circuits are the base / backbone.

The charger(s) of that bank should be universal input, can plug in at any dock plug in the world, pretty easy so far.

Now, you have a variety of load devices. The goal is to be able to use whatever you already have, and if a given appliance needs replacing or you see a nicer one, you can buy it anywhere in the world and easily slot it into your infrastructure.

This is done by having a variety of inverters powering the AC circuits, some perhaps dedicated to specific loads. Whether 50hz or 60hz, 120Vac or 240Vac

NONE of these loads run directly off shore power, only off inverters fed from your 48V House bank.

The ONLY connection to shore power is your universal "world input" charger(s).

What is a universal input that allows for plugging into any dock? I ask because I had a 220v boat, converted it to 110v and have the standard NA outlet for shore power. I am just about to create a second outlet with a 230v with a separate 230v battery charger so I can plug into shore power, but run 110v inside the boat off battery/inverter. Before I do that, curious what this universal input solution is, something like this? https://angconverters.com/

[Networker]

Originally Posted by crayiii

If resale value is important, think about where you are likely to sell the boat. It seems like south Florida is the fastest and highest value market so what I would do (and what we did do) would be to spec the boat with the system that is the standard there.

If you're sailing the world, I would think that you'll limit the time in marinas so it shouldn't matter that much.

It also sounds like money isn't much of a deciding factor so go DC with everything including air conditioning and then you don't need to worry much about the voltage or frequency at the docks. We installed a second battery charger that is 230v and have a cord accessible in a sealed hatch that allows us to run the charger in those countries that don't have US voltage. Then we just happily run all the 12v gear off solar, wind, and as needed, the shore power.

That’s exactly what I’m thinking of doing . It’s the easiest solution.

[sck5]

I solved this problem on my 110v US boat by installing a second 220v charger. The only thing I couldnt do is run the air conditioning at a 220v dock. Not a big deal for me since anchoring out in trade wind conditions isnt unpleasant at all.

We also realized at some point that we werent really using many 110v appliances anyway. We boiled water the old fashioned way with propane and plugged in our various computers and related devices to recharge but they dont care what the voltage is anyway. Hairdryers were banned on my boat to begin with so what was left? Not much as it turns out.

It seems to me these discussion end up obsessing on details that dont matter in real life or are just rounding error. Dont overthink before you spend a lot of money on stuff you may not really need and which is complicated to deal with.

[s/v Jedi]

I am posting my diagram for EU boats again. I know it doesn’t help people in this thread because they already invested into their system with different voltage chargers etc. but future readers may catch this before buying;

This diagram can be simplified, for example you can eliminate generator, selection switch etc. Or you can just create one output distribution group, and even eliminating the switches there if you use a jumper.

There are two main points to this:

1. Victron 3.6kW isolation transformer. Not only does this keep your boat and crew safe, it can also take 120V shore power and double it to 240V for use by the inverter/chargers.

2. There are two identical Victron Multiplus 3000 units. They can be run in parallel, but you can also use these for frequency conversion by changing settings and breakers: the charger part of these units work on both 50Hz and 60Hz, so when you switch the output breakers to OFF, you have created a powerful battery charger. With the second unit you switch the input breaker to OFF, forcing it to invert, creating 50Hz power aboard that comes from the other Multiplus rather than from the batteries, which merely function as a buffer.
Of course you only have half the capacity, but it is enough even for A/C plus an induction cooktop

The third big advantage is that by using identical units, you have redundancy.

[noelex 77]

I did measure our induction efficiency boiling water. See here:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3668116