110v 220v definitions WHY?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

It's mostly a historical anomaly. They started with 110v, then as systems expanded, they bumped it up to 115v then 120v to compensate for greater distances and higher draws. They stopped when they started using step up and step down transformers to use much higher voltages (plus there were concerns about excessively high voltage in household use).

Europe and some other areas started later and immediately started at 220v and most eventually went thru a similar process stopping at 240v.

As mentioned, these are nominal voltages. Actual measured voltages will vary within tolerances.

The result, old timers never stopped saying 110v and as long as you are talking stationary grid based systems, all the electricians knew what they were talking about, so it introduced no confusion. Newbies with minimal understanding and no historical background are the only ones confused as a result.

Indeed. Why is this "head exploding", to the OP? The power itself varies quite a bit from country to country and within countries; the nomenclature is not exact. What's the big deal?


We have nominally 230v single phase power in Europe; used to be 220v some years ago. In the UK, it is officially defined to be up to 10% plus and 6% minus, so from 216v up to 252v. And in reality it varies a lot. I've seen from about 200v to over 240v from shore power. Not really a big deal except that at the lower end of that range, there starts to be notable loss of efficiency with some devices.

[Cadence]

As I recall it comes down to the generator, delta or Y wound. A transformer can be used to get a neutral and ground at the same point. I don't think the Europeans have neutral so to speak, two hots and a ground. US 220 has both, neutral and a ground. If someone wants 120 a floating ground in lieu of neutral can be a problem with voltage variations. An isolation transformer can solve it.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Pansatonic

Do you really have 240v at you incoming? I have UK friends and they are 230v plus minus some.

Yes, even 242v on the boat on Saturday afternoon. I wouldn't normally measure it, but the master double pole switch on the mains panel failed a week ago. Can't complain its 32 years old but was only giving 67 volts on the load side so replaced it and problem solved.

Pete

[LouK]

Of note, there is currently a movie playing called ‘The Current War’, the story about how the US determined whether to go with AC or DC voltage standards & profiles the competition between Edison, Westinghouse & Tesla. Very good flic.

LouK

[David B]

Originally Posted by Pansatonic

Ok my first post is a little toung in cheek reflection.

I have electrical background but little marine product knowledge. Im am intrested in the cons and pros in different designs for seasonal Us/Carib EU cruising.

So with that the thread "How can I run a European system (50hz 240v) in America (60hz 120v)?" is very intresting.

But all the 110v,115v, 120v, 220v, 230v and even the title 240v european standard reference, it must be a head exploding experience for a casual cruiser

Even i need to re read to make sure i understand what is "really" discussed. Does it need to be so hard talking about the same thing?

The international standard is 230V 50Hz. Europe moved up from 220V over thirty years ago. Australia officially moved down from 240V (Western Australia was 250V) over twenty years ago. New Zealand has effectively always been 230V, UK was 250V and has moved down.

America and some Asian countries have their 110V (these days more like 115V), but at either 50Hz or 60Hz (some Asian countries even mix the frequency). Then there is the provision for doubling the voltage as seen in America etc, where the nominal 220V is referred to (and is usually more like the international standard 230V).

However the truth is in the detail. Ask the Australian authorities for example, and they will insist Australia is now compliant with the international standard of 230V/50Hz. However dig further and they will admit "within the permitted tolerance of +10%/-5%". So the truth therefore in Australia at least, is that they are happy for the mains supply voltage to be within the range of 218.5-253V! (read: nothing changed other than WA - Australia is still 240V).

That's quite a range and does cause problems for many inductive devices such as for example the older magnetic ballasted lighting equipment (typically with a tolerance of only +/-5%), and with electric motors.

In Europe, I have seen the 'standard 230V' varying from 188 to 241V. To be fair, that is at marinas, where obviously older cabling runs are being taxed by modern boats and their air-conditioning requirements. Probably at the main feed, the voltage is compliant.

For us cruisers, be aware that low voltages in particular, can cause issues such as overheating with mains-voltage refrigeration and air-conditioning compressors. It might sound strange, but the lower voltage means a lot less power, and therefore overloading of the motor trying to do it's intended job. Of course if the compressor is DC or frequency controlled, then that is not a problem as long as the controller is receiving the full DC voltage.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Cadence

As I recall it comes down to the generator, delta or Y wound. A transformer can be used to get a neutral and ground at the same point. I don't think the Europeans have neutral so to speak, two hots and a ground. US 220 has both, neutral and a ground. If someone wants 120 a floating ground in lieu of neutral can be a problem with voltage variations. An isolation transformer can solve it.

Europe for standard supply has single phase 230V/50Hz. The standard Shuko connector is therefore Active, Neutral and Earth - like most of the rest of the world with their various connectors.
Earlier European connectors in particular, were not polarised, so depending on which way you inserted the connector, you could have active or neutral (no earth) on the brown (normally active) and blue (normally neutral) conductors. That may be where the confusion comes from.
Neutral and earth are usually 'bonded' at the main feed distribution point.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by David B

Europe for standard supply has single phase 230V/50Hz. The standard Shuko connector is therefore Active, Neutral and Earth - like most of the rest of the world with their various connectors.
Earlier European connectors in particular, were not polarised, so depending on which way you inserted the connector, you could have active or neutral (no earth) on the brown (normally active) and blue (normally neutral) conductors. That may be where the confusion comes from.
Neutral and earth are usually 'bonded' at the main feed distribution point.

Europe has a grounded neutral, a hot called “phase” and a ground. The outlets accepted a plug either way so there was no way to ensure which conductor for an appliance was neutral and which was hot, unless the plug had a ground pin. But the neutral was always grounded in my lifetime

[David B]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Europe has a grounded neutral, a hot called “phase” and a ground. The outlets accepted a plug either way so there was no way to ensure which conductor for an appliance was neutral and which was hot, unless the plug had a ground pin. But the neutral was always grounded in my lifetime

Yes, as per my earlier post, the earth is 'bonded' to the neutral and the main distribution point. The current Shuko connectors generally also have the earth pin (the pin is in the wall outlet, so female earth, male active and neutral). There is then no chance of reversing active with neutral, but there are plenty of two-pin connectors for lamps etc, and it's a lottery whether you get active on the centre of the lamp socket or the outside. That's where the Australian/New Zealand connectors are unique. With angled blades, it's impossible to reverse - earth pin or not.

[Vortec]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Not at all, if you stay in one country. Travel around even Europe as many of us have done and its a real pain even just changing plugs on every household item, never mind dealing with voltages and frequencies. What I did in the end was use lots of extension leads so you only have to change one plug. Fire risks? well lets not go there

Its because UK has never implemented the ISO/metric standards ruling in the EC! 😉

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by David B

The international standard is 230V 50Hz. Europe moved up from 220V over thirty years ago. Australia officially moved down from 240V (Western Australia was 250V) over twenty years ago. New Zealand has effectively always been 230V, UK was 250V and has moved down.

....

However the truth is in the detail. Ask the Australian authorities for example, and they will insist Australia is now compliant with the international standard of 230V/50Hz. However dig further and they will admit "within the permitted tolerance of +10%/-5%". So the truth therefore in Australia at least, is that they are happy for the mains supply voltage to be within the range of 218.5-253V! (read: nothing changed other than WA - Australia is still 240V).

That's quite a range and does cause problems for many inductive devices such as for example the older magnetic ballasted lighting equipment (typically with a tolerance of only +/-5%), and with electric motors.

All standards at all times have had tolerances that they attempted to stay within. To imply that anything other than exactly at 230v (or any other nominal voltage you chose to follow) is violating the standard is to not understand the standard.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

All standards at all times have had tolerances that they attempted to stay within. To imply that anything other than exactly at 230v (or any other nominal voltage you chose to follow) is violating the standard is to not understand the standard.

This is a shockingly good thread , but is getting rather wired and heated and every one seems to be saying the same argument , give a bored cruiser an electrical thread and off they go with a bang

[Tayana42]

Worker at a shipyard said, “Most people are shocked when they find out how incompetent I am as an electrician.”

[Cheechako]

What is now 120V used to be 110V in the US. So people just refer to the old designation. I think it may have been 115 V in between too.

[Dsanduril]

For the insistence on using "230" Volts, that's fine if you think about the European standard, but you're also insisting on using 120V as the US standard. And the US standard delivery is now from a center tapped transformer => two legs of 120V to neutral (the center tap) so the voltage from leg to leg is 240V. Thus it is very proper, and correct under the standard, to refer to American Voltage as 240V. 220 may be a holdover from old times, but both 230 and 240 are quite valid depending on context.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by David B

Europe for standard supply has single phase 230V/50Hz. The standard Shuko connector is therefore Active, Neutral and Earth - like most of the rest of the world with their various connectors.
Earlier European connectors in particular, were not polarised, so depending on which way you inserted the connector, you could have active or neutral (no earth) on the brown (normally active) and blue (normally neutral) conductors. That may be where the confusion comes from.
Neutral and earth are usually 'bonded' at the main feed distribution point.

Thanks! If I am reading this correctly, dependent on the way older connectors were inserted you don't know what wire is hot?
I would seem, with 230V single phase going from 230 ton 110/120 or220, or in reverse should be a non issue most appliance type items aren't that freq. sensitive not the electronics since most rectify it from the gitgo. It would seem, a lot of money is spent on expensive charger/ inverters unnecessarily.