220v to 110v?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Well, certainly! If you connect the 2 live systems together something will smoke. But that's not the question.

Yes! If wired properly, the EU type C, E, F receptacles can be connected to US 240V. Obviously the appliances need to support 60hz power. I know of several residential homes in S. Florida that are owned by EU'ians that had an electrician install EU receptacles so they could plug in their shavers, laptops, cell phone chargers, hair clippers, etc. I even witnessed a local building inspector pass the installation of EU receps stating it was 'fine'.

The appliance has no clue that it's neutral and ground are at 120V differential. (most appliances don't even have a ground wire)

That's news to me! Learn something every day.

But how do you connect them? What do you do with the extra wire?

Edit: OK, to answer my own question, I guess you have 240v between the two live leads (just like you have 400v between any two of the three live leads in European 3 phase), and you use those two as if they were the hot and neutral of the European system. The problem is then you don't have neutral and no way to ground anything. RCD's wouldn't work. Would be OK with double insulated appliances, but you certainly couldn't hook up a whole boat like that.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It weighs 75kg! That's 165 pounds. And it duplicates the function of a separate 110v battery charger which is much lighter, cheaper, marine rated, and can be used for other purposes. Assuming you already have the inverter or a 230v charger/inverter.

Can't find a price on a 10 KVA marine inverter.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Just a quick note that from a frequency standpoint, most (nearly all) 50hz motors will be quite happy at 60hz. That is they will run slightly faster RPM but will not over heat.

Trying to run a single speed (non inverter duty) 60hz motor on 50hz on the other hand, will more times then not cause the motor to overheat. There are many variables, but it's generally not going to work well.

Resistance loads of course don't really care either way.

So just using a simple transformer to increase 110V to 220V would generally be fine to do.

That's great to know.

And the Victron isolation transformers will do just that, while fulfilling a completely different function of prevent stray current corrosion.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Point of order -- North American docks with 240v power will be split phase, three-wire plus ground. A completely different system not in any way compatible with 230v single phase power.

I believe this statement is a bit too strong.

It is possible to connect a European boat that is properly wired to Euro standards to a US dock with the appropriate adapter. Only practical issue is frequency that CAN be a problem for SOME devices (eg some air conditioners or washing machines) . It is true that the two current-carrying wires will be 120V away from earth (instead of one being close to earth and the other one 240V away from earth, as in Europe), but this will not be unsafe if the boat is wired to current Euro standards (eg two-pole breakers that will disconnect both current-carrying wires, etc). If the boat has an RCD it wil in fact be safer than many American boats.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Can't find a price on a 10 KVA marine inverter.

Found one - Master Volt needs input 24 volt, cost $15k weighs 98lbs

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's news to me! Learn something every day.

But how do you connect them? What do you do with the extra wire?

Edit: OK, to answer my own question, I guess you have 240v between the two live leads (just like you have 400v between any two of the three live leads in European 3 phase), and you use those two as if they were the hot and neutral of the European system. The problem is then you don't have neutral and no way to ground anything. RCD's wouldn't work. Would be OK with double insulated appliances, but you certainly couldn't hook up a whole boat like that.

Yes, you can hook up a whole boat like that, and yes, RCDs will work.

RCDs simply monitor for a differential in current flow between the 2 (now hot) conductors. The RCD doesn't care that both conductors are 120V off ground.

[Pelagic]

On interesting titbit I discovered when researching my Induction Hob was that many manufacturers will "Label" their equipment either 50Hz only or 60 Hz only.

The reason is to save money on obtaining National safety permits for each country.
(They simply label to that countries grid specs)

...While in reality, they are made standard for both Frequencies.

[runnerman1]

Just invest in good convertor...don't buy a cheap one

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, North American 240v is two legs -- "split phase" -- of 120v each. it has three wires plus ground.

Actually German power used to be like that as well. Two live wires 180 degrees out of phase, each 110V. This is why German plugs are reversible and European appliance standards assume that you cannot trust that Live and Neutral will never be reversed. (hence the use of double pole switches).

And two live wires at 120V, 180 degrees apart will look the same to an Appliance as one live at 240 V and one neutral. And European appliances, as indicated, don't care about live and neutral, only about the difference between them.

It is similar with Europes 3 phase 400V. You have three live and one neutral. 120 degrees phase difference between them. You get 400V between any two live wires, and 240V between any live wire, and neutral. In Switzerland you can actually find 400V power sockets in houses. They are made so that you can also insert a 240V plug in to it, and it will then be connected to one live and one neutral.

Making the boat capable of being connected to 110v shore power is fairly easy. The most straightforward way is just to add a large 110v battery charger (with a separate shore power inlet and cable) in parallel to the existing 230v one,

I would just get a universal charger. One that takes anything from 100-400V, at any frequency. That way you don't need separate shore inlets, and you've removed one potential desastrous error...

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Can't find a price on a 10 KVA marine inverter.

But do you really need one?

Many 5KVA inverters can sustains peeks up to 10KVA. So you may be fine. Or you can just install multiple in parallel.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's news to me! Learn something every day.

But how do you connect them? What do you do with the extra wire?

Edit: OK, to answer my own question, I guess you have 240v between the two live leads (just like you have 400v between any two of the three live leads in European 3 phase), and you use those two as if they were the hot and neutral of the European system. The problem is then you don't have neutral and no way to ground anything. RCD's wouldn't work. Would be OK with double insulated appliances, but you certainly couldn't hook up a whole boat like that.

A 120/240V North American shore power connection is a four-wire connection: hot, hot, neutral, ground. For a European boat, you don't use the neutral.

Ground is still ground and still connects, on the boat side, through whatever safety device you have.

One hot is still hot.

The other hot goes to the neutral on the boat. Remember that, on the boat, neutral isn't connected to ground, anywhere; there's no practical or safety reason why it can't be 120 volts to ground instead of 1-6 volts to ground as it would be in a typical European installation under load.

RCDs still work the usual way. They measure the difference in current between the two wires they monitor, which is unaffected by voltage.

At least that's how I'd do it, but what do I know.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Can't find a price on a 10 KVA marine inverter.

Why do you need 10KVA? You don't have that much shore power. 30 amps of 110v make about 3.3kW

Victron makes 3kW and 5kW inverters and inverter/chargers. You can gang them if necessary.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Actually German power used to be like that as well. Two live wires 180 degrees out of phase, each 110V. This is why German plugs are reversible and European appliance standards assume that you cannot trust that Live and Neutral will never be reversed. (hence the use of double pole switches).

And two live wires at 120V, 180 degrees apart will look the same to an Appliance as one live at 240 V and one neutral. And European appliances, as indicated, don't care about live and neutral, only about the difference between them.

It is similar with Europes 3 phase 400V. You have three live and one neutral. 120 degrees phase difference between them. You get 400V between any two live wires, and 240V between any live wire, and neutral. In Switzerland you can actually find 400V power sockets in houses. They are made so that you can also insert a 240V plug in to it, and it will then be connected to one live and one neutral.



I would just get a universal charger. One that takes anything from 100-400V, at any frequency. That way you don't need separate shore inlets, and you've removed one potential desastrous error...

I never knew that about German power. I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks. I always wondered why German plugs have no polarity whereas French ones do.


A universal charger and separate inverter (or gang of inverters) would work fine. You would lose the very wonderful advantage of Power Boost, but that wouldn't matter if you're mostly operating with shore power different from the voltage supplied on board.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Yes, you can hook up a whole boat like that, and yes, RCDs will work.

RCDs simply monitor for a differential in current flow between the 2 (now hot) conductors. The RCD doesn't care that both conductors are 120V off ground.

Thanks for the correction. I learned something interesting; thanks.

[gultekin]

Our boat is made for UK. In the US I connect to 50 amp shore power. It has two hot wires (phases) - just like home electrical dryers. It will give you 220-240V & 60 Hz. Most AC to DC controllers will work with 60 Hz. Our A/C runs on 220-240 V & 50-60 Hz range. Check your shore power cable to make sure that it has the right connectors. I jury rigged a 50 amp shore male connector to a 30 amp cable. You will not need transformer for most appliances as long as they run on 110/240V.