24vdc Help for HUGE Anchor Windlass

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Cat man do: We are a 64' boat and our every-day-anchor is 176 lbs on 350' 3/8" G7 chain. I am so convinced that the Maxwell 3500 will outperform the other windlass you are looking at.

I am not sure how you can say that when the specs are as follows

Maxwell 3500
Maximum pull 1590kg
Motor Power 1200watt
Vertical Windlass and Capstan Range

compared to

Anchorlift Aquarius
Maximum Pull 2000kg (+26%)
Motor power 2500 watt (+109%)
Anchorlift - Windlasses: 55-90 foot Boats

Separate batteries in the bow will not save weight.

The actual bows on my vessel are still a further 4 metres forward of where the anchor locker and batteries will be stored.
The ANCHOR will also be 102 lb's lighter than yours and the chain will be 250 ft shorter.

You can't make a 24V tap on a 12V battery bank. You can make a 12V tap on a 24V bank.

Joli seems to suggest differently above stating he has a 12 volt system AND a 24 volt winch , bowthruster and fridge and in this thread HERE says

Just tap 2 12's to make 24. Don't add batteries to the bow, you will only run the bt (Bow Thruster) when docking and the engine is running. We have 12 and 24 v systems and do not run the bt(Bow Thruster) enough to run the 24 v bank down even a little.

Sure, he refers to a bow thruster there but surely a winch would be similar.

Many arguments for 24V are valid: you get half the current for the same power so can use smaller wire. But most boats end up using 12V for almost everything so not much is saved then. Indeed LED lamps cancelled much of the advantage of 24V.

The added cost and complexity (24V alternators, 12V tap on house bank, DC-DC converters for all "light" 12V stuff, just try to buy a 24V VHF, still need 12V bank(s) for starting engines and gensets etc. etc.) isn't worth it imo because it just works fine on 12V too.

cheers,
Nick.

I certainly have no interest in going complete 24 volt, but if there is a way to get what Joli suggests, just for this one winch, I would like to hear.

Joli, you there? More info please.

[44'cruisingcat]

Hey Dave, if you do go the 24 volt route, I can get you a pair of very big 24 volt bilge pumps. Originally bought for filling the buckets on fire-fighting helicopters, but never been used.

Very cheap for the size.

PM me if you're interested.

[Stillraining]

Yes there is a way...BUT you can not have both a parallel system ( adding up the amperages of your batteries) and a Series system ( adding up the voltages of your batteries) at the same time for both voltages.

So you can have a single battery bank that give you both 12 and 24 but you will loose the ability to tap into ALL the amperage available to the 12 volt side unless you run separate leads to each 12 volt side and to each thing connected to it..That would be a nightmare cobbled up mess.

I agree with going with a ..a separate bank and satellite charger in the bow.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Stillraining

Yes there is a way...BUT you can not have both a parallel system ( adding up the amperages of your batteries) and a Series system ( adding up the voltages of your batteries) at the same time for both voltages.

I'll display my lack of electrickery knowledge here and suggest this in crude drawing format.



Wouldn't that be batteries in parallel for extra amp hours and then to bus bars effectively making a remote 12 volt battery, then those in series to make a 24 volt connection?

Could this be what joli was suggesting with the 2 x 12v taps to make 1 @ 24v?

[Stillraining]

No because that one jumper you have connecting both buses is a direct short.

Like he said you can tap 12 off of 24 but not 24 off 12

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Stillraining

Like he said you can tap 12 off of 24 but not 24 off 12

Some have said that, others have said

Just tap 2 12's to make 24. Don't add batteries to the bow, you will only run the bt (Bow Thruster) when docking and the engine is running. We have 12 and 24 v systems and do not run the bt(Bow Thruster) enough to run the 24 v bank down even a little.

What or who do I believe?

Joli is saying he is actually doing it........and getting results.

I have no idea

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by cat man do

I am not sure how you can say that when the specs are as follows

What are you looking at? Maximum watts from the motor? That doesn't say anything, if you look at the Maxwell range you'll find bigger motors on models with less lifting power. The only difference for that is the rate of chain taken in per minute. Maximum pull is also senseless. The aquarius also lists a working load pull. And an amperage draw... nice but all irrelevant.

The Maxwell will pull 3500 pounds in the real world. If you load it that high, it will use a lot of power and take the chain in slowly. The only time you load it high is from the moment you actually pull the anchor up from the seabed. Before that, you're only lifting a section of chain.
In other words, you can load it up to it's maximum pull. The other one indicates you should limit the pull to 1980 pounds??? Why is that?

What I mean with outperform is the windlass as the complete package in use aboard. The construction alone is a world of difference. The Maxwell is marine-grade bronze with heavy chrome coat... very strong and never a speck of rust! And it will just keep working.

So, let me tell you how to size your windlass. You need to know the weight of your anchor plus chain. Multiply that by three. Now you have a pull-rating that the windlass must have as a minimum.

Next, you look at the weight and length of the boat. You are 50' and light displacement. A 2,200 lbs windlass would already be fine, a 3500 lbs windlass would be called overkill by many, even by Steve Dashew, who put 2200's on the Sundeer 56's.

Next you look at the chain size. I guess you want to go with 3/8". The windlass must support that. The Aquarius is minimum 12mm I see, that's too big. It just doesn't make sense to go with 12mm chain on a light displacement 50' boat. If you want the chain to be very strong, stronger than G4, you can do what we did, go to G7 chain which is rated for 6,600 lbs at 3/8". That saves a lot of weight or you can take more chain.

It doesn't matter where you locate the windlass. Separate batteries just for the windlass will weigh more than thick cables to your house bank.

If someone wrote that he made a 24V tap on a 12V battery bank, that person is seriously confused because that's technically impossible. When you put two 12V batteries in series for a 24V bank, you can "tap" it at the jumper cable between the two which, when combined with the negative cable, gives you 12V. Now, take two 6V batteries for a 12V bank and tell me how to connect that to make 24V. Fairytale.

When you use 4 6V batteries for a 12V bank, one could come up with some silly scheme with a heap of battery switches to create 24V. It'll probably blow up every 12V piece of kit aboard and is just insane and not safe.
The idea of a 2nd 24V bank with a 24V charger powered by a 12V inverter from the house bank is just as crazy, but it will work and is safe. It also means a separate bank.

You wrote that your anchor will be 74 lbs and your chain 100 feet? That really doesn't make any sense to me. You can pull that up by hand. You can anchor at max depth 20'. I think you must mean 200' of chain? Still rather short. Remember that these windlasses are chain-only!
Now, if your anchor is that much lighter than ours, and your chain so much shorter, and you boat so much lighter, and your boat that much shorter, why do you need a windlass even bigger than ours???

p.s. don't forget the chain stopper. It saved Jedi at 120 knots sustained winds.

cheers,
Nick.

[Sailndive345]

FWIW: I have a 12V retractable bowthruster and it was mounted to feed directly from a dedicated battery roughly 40' away. The cables used were #2 gauge and the drop was still large enough that I had to move the battery close to (next to) the thruster (used the cables for charging it) - has been working well since.

(I just did not want to add a 24V set up and complicate things)

This may or may not apply to your situation but it is real data - at least for me

Good luck!

Sailndive

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cat man do

I'll display my lack of electrickery knowledge here and suggest this in crude drawing format.



Wouldn't that be batteries in parallel for extra amp hours and then to bus bars effectively making a remote 12 volt battery, then those in series to make a 24 volt connection?

Could this be what joli was suggesting with the 2 x 12v taps to make 1 @ 24v?

Whatever you do, don't try this!

You have created a direct short in your 12 volt system. Follow the wires.

[Boracay]

Have you considered an Arco Hutton windlass?

They are made in Western Sydney. Good solid construction, know their onions, been in business for a while.

My windlass came with the boat. Took it out for an overhaul, they waved some grease over it and said it'd be fine and so it was.

They said that a 2000W motor had been fitted, and it's shown no signs of overloading with my 45lb Supreme and lots of chain. Bit slow though.

When I asked about power he muttered something about gearing.

It might be worth your while to give them a call. They might put a bigger motor on an already big windlass if you ask them nicely.

[Stillraining]

Not all that crazy if your house bank is 40' from the bow as in my boat.

I'm going with 12v windlasses but I'm still going to put their batteries in the bow..and put echo chargers on them.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Whatever you do, don't try this!

You have created a direct short in your 12 volt system. Follow the wires.

Well I did say I was no expert

I was getting ideas from this pic

Deep Cycle Batteries FAQ.

[skipmac]

Hi Cat Man Do,

One comment about your question that the specs of the Maxwell do not compare with the specs of the Aquarius. Specs on a piece of paper do not necessarily reflect actual performance in the real world. I would listen more to the comments of people that used the real units in the real world.

Also, Nick has it right on the battery set ups. I've read his comments on electrical issues before and he knows of what he speaks.

Skip
BSEE

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What I mean with outperform is the windlass as the complete package in use aboard. The construction alone is a world of difference. The Maxwell is marine-grade bronze with heavy chrome coat... very strong and never a speck of rust! And it will just keep working.

Have you seen the anchorlift to compare?
I haven't, but it's supposedly all s/s construction
I remember the best bit of gear on my last boat were the Andersen winches, all s/s as well and never a speck of rust

So, let me tell you how to size your windlass. You need to know the weight of your anchor plus chain. Multiply that by three. Now you have a pull-rating that the windlass must have as a minimum.

Next, you look at the weight and length of the boat. You are 50' and light displacement. A 2,200 lbs windlass would already be fine, a 3500 lbs windlass would be called overkill by many, even by Steve Dashew, who put 2200's on the Sundeer 56's.

Yep and I was spec'd that (2200) size by Gmac and suppliers here as well

Next you look at the chain size. I guess you want to go with 3/8". The windlass must support that. The Aquarius is minimum 12mm I see, that's too big. It just doesn't make sense to go with 12mm chain on a light displacement 50' boat.
If you want the chain to be very strong, stronger than G4, you can do what we did, go to G7 chain which is rated for 6,600 lbs at 3/8". That saves a lot of weight or you can take more chain.

check again, it takes 10 mm - 3/8" HT G4 Chain as well

It doesn't matter where you locate the windlass. Separate batteries just for the windlass will weigh more than thick cables to your house bank.

I realise that, but my dodgy drawing didn't need the extra batteries and had a run of 2.4 metres from house bank to winch

If someone wrote that he made a 24V tap on a 12V battery bank, that person is seriously confused because that's technically impossible. When you put two 12V batteries in series for a 24V bank, you can "tap" it at the jumper cable between the two which, when combined with the negative cable, gives you 12V. Now, take two 6V batteries for a 12V bank and tell me how to connect that to make 24V. Fairytale.

When you use 4 6V batteries for a 12V bank, one could come up with some silly scheme with a heap of battery switches to create 24V. It'll probably blow up every 12V piece of kit aboard and is just insane and not safe.
The idea of a 2nd 24V bank with a 24V charger powered by a 12V inverter from the house bank is just as crazy, but it will work and is safe. It also means a separate bank.

OK, like I said I know bugger all about electricals.
Joli seemed to be saying it was doable and being done.

I take it you are saying he is full of it

You wrote that your anchor will be 74 lbs and your chain 100 feet? That really doesn't make any sense to me. You can pull that up by hand.

Your anchor wEnch is obviously far stronger than mine.
She was flat out pulling up a 35lb plough and 10 metres of chain on the last boat.

The anchor size spec'd after a lengthy conversation with the manufacturer was the size UNDER (55lb) the one I mentioned.
This 55lber apparently held a similar sized and weight cat in the Thailand Tsunami
Another Tsunami Success Story

You can anchor at max depth 20'. I think you must mean 200' of chain? Still rather short.

Nope, I was thinking of buying a full length (43 metres) and possibly taking some off for other anchors

30 metres (100ft) of chain allows plenty of scope if anchoring in 12 to 20 ft of water, and I'll have plenty of rope for additional.
Remember I only draw 3 ft

Remember that these windlasses are chain-only!

You got me there, I did not pick that up, thanks and this pretty much ends the wish for this winch.

Now, if your anchor is that much lighter than ours, and your chain so much shorter, and you boat so much lighter, and your boat that much shorter, why do you need a windlass even bigger than ours???

Why not ?
It was still over $1000 cheaper than a maxwell 2200, figured bigger for less price and longer warranty has gotta be better.

p.s. don't forget the chain stopper. It saved Jedi at 120 knots sustained winds.

I wont,
but I'll be on a bridle with stopper as backup

Thanks

[CharlieJ]

Here is a workable solution: Side-Power bow & stern thrusters - Serial-Parallel Switchbox

This box contains contactors that electrically manipulate battery connections so that a battery is taken out of the parallel configuration in a bank and places it in series with the other batteries in the bank when 24 VDC is required. I installed one for a 24 VDC bow thruster and it works well.

Pricey, but solves the high demand 24 VDC on a 12 VDC vessel problem.

Charlie