24vdc - Newbie Needs Help ! Funny, too !

[ti325v]

• The engine runs when the boat moves from dive site to dive site.....30 min to one hour at a time, 3 moves a day. 95% of the time the only light in use will be in the toilet (and that will be on about 50% of the time we are out....We sometimes dive at night and will need the running lights on 5 12V taillight bulbs for 2 hours, 1 hour of which is under power...and the deck lights 7 more tail light bulbs, for 20 minutes pre dive and 20 minutes post dive.... Most days the inverter will never be switched on for 220... The gps and VHF use almost no juice.....
• considering those usage demands do you think the deep cycle is necessary ? If so, I likely can find one....but will have to translate the Chinese myself of the battery, as they REALLY know NOTHING and it will be a hunt from shop to shop....
• There is a street in the nearest city with about 50 chandlers.....but nobody has a clue what the other guy has....and having the same conversation 50 times (see below)while trying to find what you want and despite the fact that I speak Vietnamese, peoples brains turn off as they just assume I am speaking English, even though I am speaking THEIR language !!!! So first we waste five minutes getting them to realize I am talking their language !!!

Conversation In the shop...

Hi, I would like a BIG 12 V battery....

12 Volt ? or 9 volt ? ( Me standing in front of the pile of 12 V stuff...

12 volts please.. ( Moui Hai = 12, chin = 9, can you tell the difference ?)

You want a 12 V Battery ?
Yes 12v please.
Okay we got THIS one and THIS one.

Whats the difference?...

The price,

Oh by how much ?

$4 !

Can you call the manufacturer or distributor and get me some details ?
What details ? Its a 12 V battery !!!!

There are 2 golf courses in the country, one opened only last month, so I think the supply of golf cart batteries may be limited !!!!
I am not ridiculing you...just putting some perspective on how NOBODY here knows ANYTHING about what they are selling.

Also can you have a look at the engine, (previous post) another alternator may be a tough fit !!!
Thanks for your help !!!! really !!!

Originally Posted by sobriyah

Larry,

some options:

I have a Newmar 24-12v converter for my SSB, 30A capacity, cost about $150.

12v Solar panels as someone else suggested.

Second alternator - could be your best option if getting spares is an issue where you are, look for two identical in the breakers yard.

You should also consider your batteries. The batteries you have already are likely to have high cranking amps to start your engine, but will probably not tolerate being drained by much more than 5%, and if you tap into one of them for 12v, the imbalance will kill them both in no time, as will leaving the lights on. If the engine is running most of the time its less of an issue, otherwise you need to keep the 12v equipment separate
from the starting batteries. Try and find a deep cycle battery for your 12v circuit if you can, you can discharge it to 50% and it will charge right back up again. Golf cart batteries are a good place to look, although you will need to combine more than one to get 12v.

[ti325v]

Hi Blue....
There are no long haul trucks here, all traffic stops at dusk as the roads are so dangerous.....so you will not see a Peterbuilt with sleeper, microwave, t.v.
You will find left over junk imported from japan and korea with everything of value not needed to make it run stripped out...
Just giving more background of the conditions I am working under,,,,
Thanks for the post !
Larry

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

A good size truck dealer should stock, or be able to direct you to a local 24-12v converter source.
Many trucks from the Pacific rim are 24v, and I often fit them for 12v cell phones, stereos and electric door locks.
The U.S company Transpo build a unit with a single 12v 30a output, or a unit with 5 outputs, ranging from 2 to 5amps to allow U.S. trailers to operate 12v lights (indicators, brakes, running and back-up) from the truck's circuits.
Hope this helps.

[sobriyah]

Larry - looking at the photo of your engine, its not that apparent if you can bolt a pulley onto the end of the crank, and run a belt to a second alternator. If you can't, open up the drive cover to your engine alternator. If its belt driven, which it looks like, either get a longer belt and run it to both alternators, or make up a double pulley for the alternator you already have and run a second belt from there, either way you will need to make a strong bracket to mount the second alternator.

From what you have said, I doubt you will find true deep cycle batteries there, so buy the cheapest truck sized 12v battery you can get and see how you go. If they are really cheap, buy two and wire them in parallel. Your current draw does not sound huge, 15-20 amp hours, and the battery's going to get regularly charged. Look for a small alternator, you will not need anything bigger, and it'll keep down the extra load on the pulleys and shafts.

[ti325v]

Hi...
That was great info, yes the alternator is belt driven...
I will have a look under the cover tomorrow....it is 3 a.m. here now,,,
Thanks much for your input !!!
What about rpms for a car alternator ? I have no idea how fast the current shaft from the engine spins, and I am sure a car alternator will have to run at a much higher then crankshaft speed....BTW I cannot find ANY documentation on this engine...see other post (Help I.D. Yanmar)
Even Yanmar japan has been of no help, despite the fact that there are thousands of these things floating around here in S.E. Asia...
Thanks so much for your help !
Larry

Originally Posted by sobriyah

Larry - looking at the photo of your engine, its not that apparent if you can bolt a pulley onto the end of the crank, and run a belt to a second alternator. If you can't, open up the drive cover to your engine alternator. If its belt driven, which it looks like, either get a longer belt and run it to both alternators, or make up a double pulley for the alternator you already have and run a second belt from there, either way you will need to make a strong bracket to mount the second alternator.

From what you have said, I doubt you will find true deep cycle batteries there, so buy the cheapest truck sized 12v battery you can get and see how you go. If they are really cheap, buy two and wire them in parallel. Your current draw does not sound huge, 15-20 amp hours, and the battery's going to get regularly charged. Look for a small alternator, you will not need anything bigger, and it'll keep down the extra load on the pulleys and shafts.

[CarlF]

Larry,

A typical marine engine will use pulleys with a 2.5:1 ratio between the engine pulley circumference and the alternator pulley circumference. It's not critical since alternators have a pretty wide RPM range. If you use the one belt then look for a pulley that's about the size of the one on the existing alternator. Probably will be fine.

I like Sobriya's idea of using one belt. I bet you could make a mount that's a flat horizontal plate that primarily attaches to the two bolts holding the lifting eye. If needed, also build yourself some epoxy pads made from something like JB Weld stuck to the engine. Tap some short bolts into the JB Weld to stabilize the plate. Then bolt some small brackets to the plate to mount the alternator. The belt would then be a triangle. The new alternator can be rigidly mounted without a pivot since you can then use the existing alternator tensioner to tension the whole thing.

Make sure the three pulleys are exactly in the same plane and that the v-belt dimensions of the new pulley is the same as the existing pulleys or you'll chew up belts.

As suggested, don't get greedy on the alternator. You don't need much. 40 amp is plenty. 60 max. A big alternator will require a much stronger setup.

I wouldn't worry too much about the battery since it doesn't sound like you will be deep discharging it. Whatever you get, try to find a fairly fresh one.



Carl

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by ti325v

Solar panel......third world, yes they are spottily available....but the big issue about solar, is....ugly....The boat does have a 14 m X 4m flat roof..... So can I install so it is only just slightly off the roof deck ? or does it have to be pitched up ?
THx
Larry

Sorry I spoke.....
Go ahead... be a Techie.... I see your already familiar with the 'Irish Screwdiver'....

[ti325v]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sorry I spoke.....
Go ahead... be a Techie.... I see your already familiar with the 'Irish Screwdiver'....

Your idea has not been through the source mill yet !
I spent 1.5 hours last night looking for solar panels in country. I think it is a damn fine idea, except you did not yet answer my question about mounting, and since my electrical requirements seem minimal it is a very workable idea....I go for the simple myself when available....Given my electrical requirements...will one 20 watt panel be enough ? is the output 12 volts normally ? will a large battery see me through a busy day (2 trips, 4 hours running time) 5 hours moored ?....Then a night dive ? There is no power at the mooring for a recharger.....and for MY life I cannot find
24 > 12 V converter in country ( That does not mean there are not hundreds of thousands....nobody puts up a website here, they do not even have YELLOW pages yet...See my post with the typical shopping in Vietnam story.....
BtW....My place is on a REMOTE island.....its gotta be reliable or fixable on the island...they will rewind an alternator on the spot for $15.....
Thanks for a brilliant idea I am pursuing !!
Remember, labor is cheap here, average salary is just over $140 a month !!! Advanced technology unknown...yes there are computers...but the new status symbol is a clothes washer (not human powered) !!! after you have your cell phone and motorbike !!!

[ti325v]

Going over to look at the boat now....
BIG +1 for the details....
JB weld.......unknown here.......but...making any kind of bracket will cost $20.....so I will see what I can find in the way of motor mounts, or other bolts I can bracket too.....AFAIK, welding is not done to cast iron, how about brazing ????? Can I braze a bolting point on ?????
THANKS !!!!!!!
Larry
AFAIK....The original alternator is tensioned by pivot...see slot in the alternator bracket in photo....

Originally Posted by CarlF

Larry,

A typical marine engine will use pulleys with a 2.5:1 ratio between the engine pulley circumference and the alternator pulley circumference. It's not critical since alternators have a pretty wide RPM range. If you use the one belt then look for a pulley that's about the size of the one on the existing alternator. Probably will be fine.

I like Sobriya's idea of using one belt. I bet you could make a mount that's a flat horizontal plate that primarily attaches to the two bolts holding the lifting eye. If needed, also build yourself some epoxy pads made from something like JB Weld stuck to the engine. Tap some short bolts into the JB Weld to stabilize the plate. Then bolt some small brackets to the plate to mount the alternator. The belt would then be a triangle. The new alternator can be rigidly mounted without a pivot since you can then use the existing alternator tensioner to tension the whole thing.

Make sure the three pulleys are exactly in the same plane and that the v-belt dimensions of the new pulley is the same as the existing pulleys or you'll chew up belts.

As suggested, don't get greedy on the alternator. You don't need much. 40 amp is plenty. 60 max. A big alternator will require a much stronger setup.

I wouldn't worry too much about the battery since it doesn't sound like you will be deep discharging it. Whatever you get, try to find a fairly fresh one.



Carl

[boatman61]

LOL..... sorry mate... just joshing really...
You say you've 14 x 4 roof... is that metres...?? is the roof used...??
With that kind of space you could put a Ginormous Panel/panels up there... take a look here for your needs... not far from you and they're cheap.... figure out possible draw and double it... figure you'll loose maybe 2 x 1 of your roof space...
Flat is fine I'd think unless you've something up there that'll shadow it.... don't want shade it'll cut efficiency by maybe 75%...
They also do roll ups that you can walk on without worries...
www.sunelec.com

[ti325v]

oops my bad...
it is actually 13 X 4 METERS.....
Yeah HUGE !!!
I am at 6* N so, I think flat is okay..........
Shade ?......two small flags !!!!
Obstructions ? one small exhaust in the middle of the roof....
I think I need about 20-30 A.H. max.....
I believe your proposition is EXCELLENT, if they can lay flat and the out put is 12 Volts....if not I am back doing the inverter jig.....the ONLY ones I have found in the country are 12v to 220 V...
Big problem is sourcing.....I need them now...if they have to be imported, I am looking at mind blowing airfreight rates, and customs duty that often exceeds 100 % !!!! and they will sit in customs for 3 weeks....
Thanks for your input...I am researching it....If you have anything to add...please do !!!!
Sad to say they are about 13,000 miles away....I am in Vietnam !

Originally Posted by CarlF

Larry,

A typical marine engine will use pulleys with a 2.5:1 ratio between the engine pulley circumference and the alternator pulley circumference. It's not critical since alternators have a pretty wide RPM range. If you use the one belt then look for a pulley that's about the size of the one on the existing alternator. Probably will be fine.

I like Sobriya's idea of using one belt. I bet you could make a mount that's a flat horizontal plate that primarily attaches to the two bolts holding the lifting eye. If needed, also build yourself some epoxy pads made from something like JB Weld stuck to the engine. Tap some short bolts into the JB Weld to stabilize the plate. Then bolt some small brackets to the plate to mount the alternator. The belt would then be a triangle. The new alternator can be rigidly mounted without a pivot since you can then use the existing alternator tensioner to tension the whole thing.

Make sure the three pulleys are exactly in the same plane and that the v-belt dimensions of the new pulley is the same as the existing pulleys or you'll chew up belts.

As suggested, don't get greedy on the alternator. You don't need much. 40 amp is plenty. 60 max. A big alternator will require a much stronger setup.

I wouldn't worry too much about the battery since it doesn't sound like you will be deep discharging it. Whatever you get, try to find a fairly fresh one.



Carl

Originally Posted by boatman61

LOL..... sorry mate... just joshing really...
You say you've 14 x 4 roof... is that metres...?? is the roof used...??
With that kind of space you could put a Ginormous Panel/panels up there... take a look here for your needs... not far from you and they're cheap.... figure out possible draw and double it... figure you'll loose maybe 2 x 1 of your roof space...
Flat is fine I'd think unless you've something up there that'll shadow it.... don't want shade it'll cut efficiency by maybe 75%...
They also do roll ups that you can walk on without worries...
www.sunelec.com

[ti325v]

Hi Carl....
the lights came on.....not on the boat but in my head, what you said about tensioning the belt.....
Sorry I missed it first time around...this is one of a hundred different things I am pursuing to get the whole business running....at the moment this is top of the heap....It was 3:00 a.m. and when I read your answer I was at about 40%.
Great tips thanks again !

[CarlF]

J-B Weld (you want the putty version) is a thickened high temperature epoxy putty that is advertised for repairs to engine blocks (along with about 800 other things). It also takes a tap well.

I'd go ask a local garage what epoxy putty they have that works on engine blocks. You might also figure a way to secure the bracket just using existing bolts.

Carl

[ti325v]

J-B weld.....MAYBE in ONE shop in Saigon....or a thousand but you gotta find it..the whole country is like an enormous garage sale....
There are no websites, there is no product knowledge...It took me 14 HOURS to find rechargeable c- cell batteries.....Really FOURTEEN HOURS !!!!! Of going around saigon on two days, asking in about 100 shops.....Being told endlessly they are not available...

Having the same conversation as in the above post, but then adding....

Do you know where I MIGHT be able to find them ?
No

Can you please call the distributor of the AA, AAA and 9v, rechargeables you do have and ask ?

Okay, let me try... ring ring.... Sorry phone number has changed...

I finally found rechargeable c batteries 4 blocks from my house !!!!!

I just moseyed down to the biggest engine repair shop in town.......

How do you repair engine blocks ?

Blank stare ! and a bumbling attempt in English at "What is your name ? I asked him if he could pronounce "frustrated" !

I may just place a call to J.B. weld, tell them the whole story and ask if I can use a regular epoxy, fill it full of fine metal particles, and see if I can make my own version !!!!! Some Companies have been AMAZINGLY helpful in situations like this in the past......

Again Carl...Thanks for sticking with me...( ah a funny, I needed that !)

Originally Posted by CarlF

J-B Weld (you want the putty version) is a thickened high temperature epoxy putty that is advertised for repairs to engine blocks (along with about 800 other things). It also takes a tap well.

I'd go ask a local garage what epoxy putty they have that works on engine blocks. You might also figure a way to secure the bracket just using existing bolts.

Carl

[Pyrate]

I'll spare you any input I could confuse you with, as electricity is one of the areas I'm not very comfortable with. However, I'm extremely interested in what this boat from the 3rd world looks like overall. I've seen some great and some that I was amazed to see floating. Please post more pics!

Pyrate

[ti325v]

Pix on the way......in is gonna be an amazing dive boat !!!! there are some pix in another thread...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-49854-2.html


Mean while, for all that have supported me so far......I have pix coming up shortly of the front of the engine with the belt cover off...