450 AH vs 675AH charging question

[GILow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I fitted new Trojans in Hobart early 2001, replaced in about 2007 and again in mid 2013. A single duff cell in one batt on each occasion. I can live with that as they have a pretty hard life.

As stated before, although wired up as house and engine I always use and charge as a single bank which I think helps.

E.P, would you mind sharing the numbers of your setup? i.e. number of batteries vs solar capacity. Your boat is a similar size, and appears to be a similar setup to ours, so I suspect you would have similar power requirements.

Matt

[GILow]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I believe a lot of us actually get by with what are considered dead banks. I know mine was well past official dead before it got buried.
But I popped so much money into this AGM bank I'm determined to make it last til LIFE-PO is mainstream

Yes, this appears to be where I am at now. (Except, my baby AGM bank was very cheap, probably too cheap in retrospect.)

I was assuming I would go Lithium when we were ready to go cruising, but the apparent failure of the little AGM bank has forced my hand, and I just could not stomach the cost of Lithium, plus I am still just a little nervous of the new-ish technology.

As it is, we lean slightly to port due to the heavy galley, so a good sized lead-acid battery bank at midships on the starboard side will even things out nicely. Plus it will be lower than the waterline, which is nice.

Matt

[brianlara 3]

Not only BAA. PRA members also.
For those who only THINK they know everything, from an ex engine builder, if a diesel in not run loaded, no, not necessarily flat out, then its owner put him/her self at risk of becoming members of PRA. Piston Ring Abusers.
Some horses would rather die than drink.
Nobody..........ever stops learning.
Well, other the the 'Anal Retentive' that is.
From the mouths of Babes...(tiny boat owners)

[El Pinguino]

Away from boat and papers but 3 x115(?... or very close ) Trojans for 345a/h.

2 x 65W BP panels... trim-able but typical output 4 amps the pair... sometimes a bit more

8o amp battery sensed alternator.

At sea the towed gen is good for 5 amps day in day out.

Left the Kipor behind in SA but while at sea across Pacific we had no charging issues even though the PC was on all the time as I wasn't game to turn it off -- defrag issues I didn't know how to resolve -- as was the very poorly insulated fridge.

I would love to have more batts and have thought about fitting a fourth. Also if I didn't have the towed gen I would like more solar.

You would not want less than what I have....

Over the years I have used the main engine rather a lot for charging.... with a big load of amps going into lowish batts it puts a good bit of load on it. If I increase the load by switching on anything and everything you can hear it changing its tune. I don't think it does any harm.... no load into a charged bank with high revs and a machine sensed alt is a different story.

[brianlara 3]

Matt. Stop imagining lithium....one day sure! 2020. Right now you've got nothing to even charge them with
Right now you have no charger, but the majority do.
A charger may well ressurect your existing bank.
Backed off now.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Away from boat and papers but 3 x115(?... or very close ) Trojans for 345a/h.

2 x 65W BP panels... trim-able but typical output 4 amps the pair... sometimes a bit more

8o amp battery sensed alternator.

At sea the towed gen is good for 5 amps day in day out.

Left the Kipor behind in SA but while at sea across Pacific we had no charging issues even though the PC was on all the time as I wasn't game to turn it off -- defrag issues I didn't know how to resolve -- as was the very poorly insulated fridge.

I would love to have more batts and have thought about fitting a fourth. Also if I didn't have the towed gen I would like more solar.

You would not want less than what I have....

Over the years I have used the main engine rather a lot for charging.... with a big load of amps going into lowish batts it puts a good bit of load on it. If I increase the load by switching on anything and everything you can hear it changing its tune. I don't think it does any harm.... no load into a charged bank with high revs and a machine sensed alt is a different story.

Ah, a towed generator is VERY interesting to me. Particularly as the Aerogen is pretty well useless with anything from a broad reach down. I reckon as a compliment to the Aerogen it would be perfect.

Anyway, your numbers are reassuring, even if your configuration is pretty different to my setup.

Matt

[GILow]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

Matt. Stop imagining lithium....

Don't have to stop, can't afford it so I've stopped already.

But, aside from the costs, I reckon it is going to be the one to watch, so I made sure I put in a MPPT controller that understood Lithium batteries.

Funnily enough, 2019 is about when we are due to start cruising (after my son finishes year 12) so the timing probably would have been good to go with Lithium.

[TheThunderbird]

@Penguino
"
As stated before, although wired up as house and engine I always use and charge as a single bank which I think helps."

So, i assume that both house/engine bank are of the same type. All Lead Acid, I presume?
I assume that a deep cycle LA Battery is more sturdy than any AGM,or Gel, on a sailing boat.

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I have ammeters on each bit of charging kit - shore power/Honda, wind/water, solar, and engine alt.... lets me see the efficiency of everything and lets me know when something stops working.

So to give us a sample of two.... my 80 amp battery sensed Bosch will , after a night at anchor doing all the usual stuff including running the fridge, output 60 amps, after about 5 minutes or so ( never really timed it) it will drop back to 40 and some time after that will go to between 5 and 10ish. .... essentialy just covering the load plus a bit to keep the voltage up (13.8?).

Often when I'm out and about the engine will then run for maybe 8 hours.

seriously, you should check battery state 6h later too.
You look like suggesting that you may recharge battery bank in a short while !?

I much feel like your alternator gives up soon (as many low-power Alt.do), and battery looks maybe excited by voltage, but still under charged.

It is worth checking :-)

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

@Penguino
"
As stated before, although wired up as house and engine I always use and charge as a single bank which I think helps."

So, i assume that both house/engine bank are of the same type. All Lead Acid, I presume?
I assume that a deep cycle LA Battery is more sturdy than any AGM,or Gel, on a sailing boat.

Correcto...all replaced at the same time, always treated the same.

Dunno about the sturdiness but are easy to look after.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

seriously, you should check battery state 6h later too.
You look like suggesting that you may recharge battery bank in a short while !?

I much feel like your alternator gives up soon (as many low-power Alt.do), and battery looks maybe excited by voltage, but still under charged.

It is worth checking :-)

Ummmm... this alternator has been doing OK for about 15 years so far.

Its bigger than the one that came with the engine which was engine sensed.... ie just behaved as if it was in a car and totally ignored battery state.

It has an external regulator and its a good idea to carry a couple of spare ones.

[brianlara 3]

Pinguino, let's assume that you've been on the hook for 7 days, five of which have been drizzling light rain, no sun no wind.
Legitimate question, no agendas or smart asped traps....would have had the genny running for SOC maintenance/topup?
I suspect affirmative especially as running the diesel for charging is risky (despite there being those who do so with apparent impunity).
You've done the Nm's. Value your opinion.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

………..
I suspect affirmative especially as running the diesel for charging is risky (despite there being those who do so with apparent impunity).
You've done the Nm's. Value your opinion.

I don't quite understand why so many think it is difficult to load up a diesel when battery charging.

If I have to run the diesel to charge while at anchor (or mooring), I just pop it into astern and run it around 1800 rpm (it's a 2GM20 with max continuous 3400). If I have to run it for more than a hour, I just run it up to about 3000 for 10 minutes and then back to 1800 (ish).

Pretty much the same way as I use the engine when motoring in calm waters (except then it is used in "ahead" rather than "astern" )

It's not difficult (as far as I can tell)!

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

So, i assume that both house/engine bank are of the same type. All Lead Acid, I presume?
I assume that a deep cycle LA Battery is more sturdy than any AGM,or Gel, on a sailing boat.

The proper term is "flooded lead acid". AGM, Gel, and flooded lead acid batteries are all "Lead Acid", the acid being in different forms.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

Pinguino, let's assume that you've been on the hook for 7 days, five of which have been drizzling light rain, no sun no wind.
Legitimate question, no agendas or smart asped traps....would have had the genny running for SOC maintenance/topup?
I suspect affirmative especially as running the diesel for charging is risky (despite there being those who do so with apparent impunity).
You've done the Nm's. Value your opinion.

That is a pretty typical scenario except I would probably run the gen set (1kva) more often than that ... normally in the evening ...esp if I wanted heat and movies ... but yes thats why I bought the gen set.

However for years before I bought the Kipor, during the time that I had it and it wasn't working and after I dumped it I would run the main engine in the morning as required of not sailing that day. Just above idle (1100 rpm) would get max amps and it would be under load.. I would hear the change in note when it dropped to 40 and I would knock it off when it dropped to trickle charge. Engine has suffered all sorts of abuse for 29 years now.

Where I had problems was in the period 1994 to 2000 with factory fitted engine sensed alternator and no ammeter.... new batts fitted soon after buying in 94, two more sets in next 6 years until all sorted in 2000/2001 with Trojans, 80 amp alt and dedicated ammeter.