6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

[rgleason]

Yes John I'll search. Sorry.
Is the fact that my balmar ars-5 not seeing its own full output in bulk mode (shows bv=14.6v, cv=14.8), for 3 hours, yet when I measure voltage at the batteries I get 14.85v and at the end of 3 hours at 1500rpm, I get 15.1v at the batteries. The Link10 shows 14.7v and amps ranging from 0-2.5 and declining to 1.1 generally over time.

I would have thought I would go into absorption mode after 18min + 6min because I had the Guest charger on it and it was on maintenance.

Is the the alternator staying in bulk for 3 hrs because of the state of my batteries, or the fact that the regulator is not seeing its own full output of 14.8 at the batteries?

Maybe I need to check the connections at the alternator?
Particularly the blue field wire.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Yes John I'll search. Sorry.
Is the fact that my balmar ars-5 not seeing its own full output in bulk mode (shows bv=14.6v, cv=14.8), for 3 hours, yet when I measure voltage at the batteries I get 14.85v and at the end of 3 hours at 1500rpm, I get 15.1v at the batteries. The Link10 shows 14.7v and amps ranging from 0-2.5 and declining to 1.1 generally over time.

I would have thought I would go into absorption mode after 18min + 6min because I had the Guest charger on it and it was on maintenance.

Is the the alternator staying in bulk for 3 hrs because of the state of my batteries, or the fact that the regulator is not seeing its own full output of 14.8 at the batteries?

Maybe I need to check the connections at the alternator?
Particularly the blue field wire.

Makes little sense to me, but I dunno that VR. Does it have dedicated voltage sense wire?

You aren't staying in Bulk, CV is Absorb, I would set same as Bulk. If batt goes higher than the VR setpoints, something is wrong for sure.

Maybe just try adjusting it downwards?

[rgleason]

Thanks John. That is some confirmatory help.

It does have a blue dedicated field sense wire. I will trace it out and verify voltages and connections. The VR is in a factory preset flooded lead acid program named "Fdc". It showed "-b-" for Bulk mode (the first 18 minutes are predefined & always done, there is a calculated bulk period following).

I think I'll ask Balmar about this too as I would rather not mess with the factory settings yet.
Chow.

[john61ct]

Balmar famously uses those terms "differently" from what is now standard parlance. Not sure is also true with newer / better MC-614

I believe Maine Sail somewhere discusses why CC/Bulk setpoint would vary from CV/Absorb, that always puzzled me.

[a64pilot]

Yes, A Balmar 614 will stay in bulk and not be current limited, so it’s not bulk as bulk is usually defined.
Being not a smart guy I can’t make sense of it, so I set bulk at absorption voltage.

[rgleason]

I believe Maine Sail somewhere discusses why CC/Bulk setpoint would vary from CV/Absorb, that always puzzled me.

John, I had that wrong about the ARS-5. It does not have a dedicated field sense wire! https://marinehowto.com/alternators-voltage-sensing/

NOTE: The Balmar ARS-5 and Xantrex XAR regulators do not have a dedicated positive volt sensing lead. On these models voltage sensing is done between regulator B+ (red) and regulator B- (black). If these wire runs are extended to the battery bank care must be taken to account for the voltage drop in the red wire which can carry as much as 6A +/- to drive the field current. For the best performance you’ll want voltage drop in the regulator B+ wire to be as close to zero as possible. If you’ve not already purchased a regulator, then consider the Balmar MC-614.

He has a paragraph/section titled "Understanding Battery Charging Lingo" on the same webpage

Also "Regulator Volt-Sense To Battery = Correct" Reviewing this paragraph, "This means the red wire and the regulator negative wire both need to see battery terminal voltage for optimal performance."

Wish I had a MC-614, but it looks like I need to consider some regulator wiring changes, as well as check connections of the sensing wires.

He discusses the voltage drop in the pos/neg wires from alternator to battery not being properly sensed by the regulator.

What I seem to have is a different situation, the regulator seems to be staying in -b- "bulk" mode and not sensing the 14.8v being put out at the batteries because bv=14.6 and Cv=14.8 generally, over 3 hours, until the measured battery voltage went up to 15.1volts (heading towards equalization). Yet the ARS-5 is not seeing that value in "bv" nor is it regulating properly. During this time battery temp b1=20c (68degf) and alternator temp AL=66c (150degF). Engine RPM= 1500


Balmar Mulltistage Regulation

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by rgleason

What I seem to have is a different situation, the regulator seems to be staying in -b- mode and not sensing the 14.8v being put out at the batteries because bv=14.6 and Cv=14.8 generally, over 3 hours, until the measured battery voltage went up to 15.1volts (heading towards equalization). Yet the ARS-5 is not seeing that value in "bv" nor is it regulating properly.

1- Where are regulator RED and regulator BLACK connected?


2- Where is alternator B+ connected?


3- Are you using a battery temp sensor?


This may help:

Programming a Balmar Voltage Regulator (LINK)


.

[john61ct]

Maybe check the temperature compensation is doing what its supposed to?

[rgleason]

I will check this tomorrow and measure voltages at the alt and at the regulator, between red+ and black -. This morning Dale suggested making sure the voltages were the same, and then trying a different battery program setting and then go back to flooded lead acid as perhaps some settings were lost.

Once I get it working i'll advance program it for our installation as you suggest in the videos.

Thanks. More later.

[rgleason]

Yes John good idea. I will diconnect that to determine if that causes it.

Dale said the bv voltage needs needs to rise up to cv before the -b- bulk timer function & calcs will work.

[rgleason]

I may have connectors/ connections or wires to replace.

[Jetx]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

You have 2 x 6V batteries in series. When batteries are in series, they cannot balance the voltage between them. Rather, the same current flows in & out of each one no matter what the SOC is of each individual battery.

It sounds like you were only monitoring the PACK voltage, not the voltage of each 6V. I'll bet you that they are out of balance...that is, one is at higher voltage than the other.

Note that any two batteries are never exactly the same capacity. Over time they drift off, and normal charging may not "equalize" them. They need to be periodically connected to each other in parallel (not in series) so that the voltage can even out between them. Ideally you would charge them up together using a 6V charger.

Bruce - I fear this is a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway. I understand your point above about the possibility that 2 x 6V batteries may drift out of balance. It makes sense too that center-tapping (to detect if they're out of balance), and charging and/or equalizing them either separately or in parallel (to bring them back into balance) could be helpful.

But your 2 x 6V batteries is really just 3 cells + 3 cells which happen to have a "center tap" available, right? If you have a 12V battery instead of 2 x 6V golf cart batteries, then you just have 6 cells with no center tap available/exposed. And you'd equalize that 12V battery at 16V or thereabouts...with all 6 cells remaining in series. How is that different than equalizing the 2 x 6V batteries in series at the same voltage?

Is equalizing the 12V battery somehow less effective than equalizing 2 x 6V batteries in parallel (at half the voltage)?

Put another way, I thought the whole point of equalizing was to take each CELL above it's gassing point, hold there, and allow enough time for all of the cells to equilibrate/balance. If so, why would it matter if you're equalizing/gassing 3 cells in series or 6 cells in series?

Again, sorry if it's a dumb question!

[john61ct]

The ability to treat each cell individually is an advantage, so 2V units are the ideal, better than 4V, which are better than 6V, which is better than 12.

Take advantage of doing as well as you can

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by Jetx

Bruce - I fear this is a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway. I understand your point above about the possibility that 2 x 6V batteries may drift out of balance. It makes sense too that center-tapping (to detect if they're out of balance), and charging and/or equalizing them either separately or in parallel (to bring them back into balance) could be helpful.

But your 2 x 6V batteries is really just 3 cells + 3 cells which happen to have a "center tap" available, right? If you have a 12V battery instead of 2 x 6V golf cart batteries, then you just have 6 cells with no center tap available/exposed. And you'd equalize that 12V battery at 16V or thereabouts...with all 6 cells remaining in series. How is that different than equalizing the 2 x 6V batteries in series at the same voltage?

Is equalizing the 12V battery somehow less effective than equalizing 2 x 6V batteries in parallel (at half the voltage)?

Put another way, I thought the whole point of equalizing was to take each CELL above it's gassing point, hold there, and allow enough time for all of the cells to equilibrate/balance. If so, why would it matter if you're equalizing/gassing 3 cells in series or 6 cells in series?

Again, sorry if it's a dumb question!

Not a dumb question at all! Yes,you're essentially correct that for 12V what you have is 6 x 2V cells, no matter what. However it's common for the 6V pairs to not have ever been balanced to each other in the first place. Also, in way going with 6V in series (or better yet, 6 x 2V or 3 x 4V big batteries in series) allow more accurate assessment of what is going on and the ability to balance in parallel now & then.

[Jetx]

Thanks Bruce and John. If 2 x 6V batteries are equalized in series at ~16v (or a 12V battery equalized at the same voltage), would it be common to still have cells out of balance after a several hour equalization?

If so, you'd expect that (assuming individual cells are all of comparable quality), a 12V battery would have a shorter service life than 2 x 6V batteries because the 12V battery can't be equalized as effectively. Is that what you observe in real-world applications (again, assuming same quality battery)?

I confess: I'm hoping you'll say "no", so I don't have to start equalizing my 4 x 6V batts all in parallel (leaving the bank wired up and equalizing at 16V is sooo much easier!).

Thanks again.