ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

[evm1024]

Rod, perhaps you missed it so I quoted it below.

I asked ABYC about your insistence that labeling the ungrounded conductor "L2" is valid. Their response was (as I noted) you would mark neutral as neutral and not L2.

As an ABYC certified tech you of all people should know that value of following ABYC guidelines. Your labeling L2 to any conductor except the second hot conductor is in violation.

As an ABYC tech you have a duty to promote safe practices and the ABYC rules. To further defend using the label L2 on a neutral conductor is inexcusable.

Please stop.

Originally Posted by evm1024

Hi All,

Rather than debating back and forth forever I sent an email off to ABYC. I asked them if under ABYC rules if it would be permissible to mark the neutral line L2 to which one of their Asst Directors of Education responded:

You would want to mark the neutral appropriately as neutral not L2.


Short, sweet and to the point. Marking a neutral "L2" is incorrect according to the ABYC.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by evm1024

Rod, perhaps you missed it so I quoted it below.

Nope, I didn't miss anything.

Please stop wasting my time, and the time of the ABYC organization, with rhetoric and nonsense.

1. ABYC establishes standards and publishes technical information, not personal opinions of what an individual may “want to do”.

2. I generally follow ABYC standards when designing, installing, repairing, and teaching good practice, for marine electrical systems.

3. ABYC standards do not require the installer mark the grounded conductor connected to a GFCI silver terminal “Neutral” (or anything else for that matter).

4. I do generally label wires I install, a good practice over and above that required by ABYC.

5. ABYC standards do not prohibit the installer marking the grounded conductor connected to a GFCI “L2” (or anything else for that matter).

6. An ABYC asst director of education, informed that the AC electrical distribution system may be floating, would not likely even consult connecting a GFCI to it at all, as this is not ABYC compliant.

7. An ABYC asst director of education, understanding that the system may be floating would not likely refer to a conductor as “Neutral” as it is not (let alone recommend it be marked as such). A 120 Vac single phase electrical source “L2” may be made neutral by connection to ground; if it is ungrounded, it is not neutral, it is hot. (In either case, it is still "L2".)

Conclusions:

1. It is possible to manipulate a conversation and formulate a question so as to receive the response desired to support one’s incorrect position.

2. The ABYC staff person was not informed that the AC electrical supply referred to may be floating (else their answers should and would have been very different).

3. When it is not known if a 120 Vac single phase electrical supply is grounded or floating, for the purpose of explaining how a GFCI functions, referring to the conductor connected to a GFCI silver terminal as “L2 (white, neutral)” is correct and valid, while referring to it as “Neutral” is not.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by evm1024

You then link to a book by Schneider that clearly shows wiring connections to Motor starting devices which as has been noted in this thread have nothing to do with the connector names.

Once again you claim that this book which has nothing at all to do with boats, GFCI, AC conductor naming conventions etc as proof of your position.

The booklet of wiring diagrams I linked to is perfectly valid.

It contains a series of ladder wiring diagrams, depicting a single phase AC source that may or may not be grounded, which is very relevant to this thread and the preceding one.

Most of the diagrams illustrated, show various electrical components connected to a single phase AC source, represented by line voltage conductors "L1" and "L2".

Anyone who understands AC electrical sources, distribution systems, and wiring diagrams, would know that the vertical line on the left side of the diagram marked "L1" and the vertical line on the right side of the diagram marked "L2" are the two "Line Voltage Conductors" of a single phase AC electrical power source and distribution system.

That there may be a component (actuator) used in only a few of the diagrams (and likely only those depicting 3 phase sources) is totally irrelevant to this and the preceding thread.

I conclude that the mention of it, is either because the author is confused, or is attempting to use this irrelevant issue to confuse others.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by evm1024

As a side note I've looked at at least 50 images and spec sheets for GFCI. I have found that none of them (zero, nada, zip) label their neutral terminals L2 either on the line or load side.

None of them.

Not surprising at all. None of them mark their terminals "silver" either, (even though the terminal is to be silver, or identified properly in some other specified way).

A manufacturer typically marks terminals in the most brief way (to take up least space) as required to promote correct identification, by the least knowedgeable person qualified to install it. (I have been responsible for electrical product terminal marking nomenclature for a number of successful electrical product manufacturers.)

As mentioned previously, Hubbel marks the brass and silver terminals of their GFCIs "Line" to represent the 2 "Line Voltage Conductors" to be connected, "L1 and L2".

"L1 and L2" nomenclature is not likely used, as this terminology may be less familiar to some installers.

The brass terminal (to which the single phase AC supply "L1" is to be connected) is marked "hot" (as it is hot, regardless whether the AC supply is floating or grounded).

The silver terminal (to which the single phase AC supply "L2" is to be connected) is marked "white" because using "L2 (white, neutral)" would take up too much space. It is not marked "Neutral" because "L2" may be ungrounded, and therefore not neutral.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by DotDun

The nice things about standards, there are so many.

NEMA defines the standards for terminal markings on electric motors, they do not define distribution wiring standards.

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....mg-1.2009.pdf

(see section 2.2 - page 86 in the pdf)

NEMA has their own set of requirements/reasons for terminal marking.

First of all, it is good that you are conducting research to fill gaps in your understanding of electrical systems.

However, I believe you are severely overcomplicating the issue, and digging way too deep, when the correct answer is simple, and on the surface.

A single phase AC electrical source (generator, inverter, or transformer) typically has a floating output consisting of two terminals, commonly referred to as “L1 and L2”. Both are “hot”.

When those terminals are connected to an electrical distribution system, the 2 conductors may be referred to as “line voltage conductors ” and may be referred to as “L1 and L2” by nature of their connection to the AC electrical source.

If one conductor is grounded (typically L2), the two line voltage conductors “L1 and L2” may be referred to as “Line and Neutral”.

(Note they are still "L1" and "L2", as I mentioned previously, a rose by any other name... however, also as previously mentioned, it is important to identify that "L2" is grounded by some means, perhaps the most common, by referring to it as "Neutral" instead.)

For an AC electrical supply that has one leg grounded, the term “Line” means the ungrounded conductor is live or hot with respect to ground. The conductor insulation ABYC colour code is black.

The term “Neutral” means the grounded conductor has no hazardous potential with respect to ground. The conductor insulation ABYC colour code is white.

If neither leg is grounded, then neither conductor is “Neutral”, they are both hot.

Referring to a single phase AC electrical source output, where neither leg is grounded, as “Line and Neutral“, is incorrect. There is nothing “Neutral” about either of these legs.

Further, while other AC electrical sources (split phase or 3 phase) may have conductors referred to as “L1 and L2” this has absolutely no bearing on the correctness of referring to the output of a single phase 120 Vac electrical source as “L1 and L2” (especially if it may be floating).

So the actual summary to this thread is, if it is not known if one side of a single phase AC electrical supply is grounded and/or it is irrelevant to the discussion (how a GFCI functions), referring to the GFCI connections as “L1 (black, line, hot) and “L2 (white, neutral) to cover both possible scenarios, is absolutely valid and correct; whereas referring to the connections as “Line and Neutral” is incorrect, as in the case of a floating AC single phase electrical supply, neither conductor is “Neutral”.

[DotDun]

Rod,

There is no SDO nor regulatory agency anywhere in the world that has oversight of AC distribution wiring that supports your opinion. Why you continue this rant defies logic.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Rod,

There is no SDO nor regulatory agency anywhere in the world that has oversight of AC distribution wiring that supports your opinion. Why you continue this rant defies logic.

Sorry, but it is you who is incorrect (on many counts).

My position is supported by relevant electrical standards and practices.

Please answer the following very simple question...

Question: Is "L2" ever "Neutral"? (Yes or No)

(PS: I know the answer; I have all along; I am just trying to help you achieve a higher level of understanding, and deter you from proliferating misinformation.)

[Lake-Effect]

This is really something crazy to fight about.


It wouldn't ruin my day if someone labelled a neutral as "L2"... unless it was a 240 or multiphase system with more than one hot conductor. But my preference is the following:





And - full disclosure - I don't label the AC conductors normally; I feel the colour coding is sufficient.


(I'm also ABYC-certified but not very active)

[evm1024]

As we see from ABYC E-8.17.4 et al ungrounded conductors are identified by (optionally) the letters X, Y, and Z or L1, L2, and L3.

This is the ABYC saying that L2 is an ungrounded conductor and by simple LOGIC that L2 is not a grounded (i.e. neutral) conductor.

Originally Posted by evm1024

I think that this is definitive....

E-8.17.4 Power wiring for receptacles shall be connected so that
the grounded (white) conductor attaches to the terminal identified
by the word "white" or a light color (normally white or silver).
The ungrounded conductor(s) shall be attached to the terminal(s)
identified by a dark color (normally brass or copper) and,
optionally, the letters X, Y, and Z or L1, L2, and L3.

And yet some argue. So ABYC was asked...

Originally Posted by evm1024

... [ABYC] Asst Directors of Education responded:

You would want to mark the neutral appropriately as neutral not L2.


Short, sweet and to the point. Marking a neutral "L2" is incorrect according to the ABYC.

Further indication that the ABYC stance is that L2 is an ungrounded conductor.

And yet some rant and rave and go on to say that they can mark the grounded (neutral) conductors L2 if they want to. And everyone else is wrong.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by evm1024

As we see from ABYC E-8.17.4 et al ungrounded conductors are identified by (optionally) the letters X, Y, and Z or L1, L2, and L3.

This is the ABYC saying that L2 is an ungrounded conductor and by simple LOGIC that L2 is not a grounded (i.e. neutral) conductor.

This coincides with NFPA-NEC, CEC, and IEC.

Originally Posted by evm1024

And yet some argue. So ABYC was asked...



Further indication that the ABYC stance is that L2 is an ungrounded conductor.

And yet some rant and rave and go on to say that they can mark the grounded (neutral) conductors L2 if they want to. And everyone else is wrong.

Don't confuse 'em with the facts, their mind is made up!!

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Don't confuse 'em with the facts, their mind is made up!!

Instead of posting this kind of drivel, there is a question waiting for your response in post # 37.

A simple yes or no answer will do.

Again, I know the answer, have for a long time, and can answer this kind of question correctly in about 2 seconds.

What is the hold up?

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Instead of posting this kind of drivel, there is a question waiting for your response in post # 37.

A simple yes or no answer will do.

Again, I know the answer, have for a long time, and can answer this kind of question correctly in about 2 seconds.

What is the hold up?

Rod, you really sound like a broken record. Try a new tack.

[john61ct]

Just repeating something over and over hoping others will just throw up their hands and walk away.

It isn't even that big a point to - not even necessarily admit being wrong - just stop harping on it.

But no, you have to destroy every last scrap of your own credibility gnawing on that raggedy old chew toy.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by evm1024

Rod, you really sound like a broken record. Try a new tack.

Incorrect:

It was my first follow-up to the question asked of another poster.

Now here is a simple question for you...

Question:

Is it correct to refer to either of the 2 line voltage conductors, connected to an AC single phase electrical source, that is floating, as "Neutral"?

As with the other question, a simple "Yes" or "No" will do, I know the answer, and have for a long time, I am just trying to help you improve your understanding of electrical sources and distribution systems.

[evm1024]

Once again R^2 attempts to change the subject, hoping that someone will rise to the bate. Refusing to admit that ABYC has stated that the ungrounded conductor is neutral and not L2.

Really Rod, over and over and over. Just try for a moment to use logic and reason rather than bullying people around.

Remember the subject is: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label) try to not be a distraction please.

Originally Posted by evm1024

As we see from ABYC E-8.17.4 et al ungrounded conductors are identified by (optionally) the letters X, Y, and Z or L1, L2, and L3.

This is the ABYC saying that L2 is an ungrounded conductor and by simple LOGIC that L2 is not a grounded (i.e. neutral) conductor.



And yet some argue. So ABYC was asked...

... [ABYC] Asst Directors of Education responded:

You would want to mark the neutral appropriately as neutral not L2.


Short, sweet and to the point. Marking a neutral "L2" is incorrect according to the ABYC.

Further indication that the ABYC stance is that L2 is an ungrounded conductor.

And yet some rant and rave and go on to say that they can mark the grounded (neutral) conductors L2 if they want to. And everyone else is wrong.