AGM Battery Equalization

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Earlier, I had just done a quick keyword search through the Odyssey manual for "equalize" -- no occurrences. I just did another search for "recondition" and there aren't any hits on that either. Haven't seen instructions for reconditioning Odyssey batteries

Am I right to infer you wanted me to google it for you? Why wouldn't you just call Odyssey tech support?

http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume..._Procedure.pdf

Note this protocol has nothing to do with equalization, which requires an extended "intentional overcharge" at an elevated voltage.

What separates it from a normal cycling charge profile is just the deep **discharge**, what many call "exercising" the battery.

Just like the deep-cycling required for commissioning any bank during the break-in period.

And so similar to what is done when benchmarking SoH, just using a CC dummy load, my reco is to do both at the same time, if you are equipped and so inclined.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Here in Australia the trojan fla is quit a bit more expensive (+50%) than what I paid for agm.

Yes, I realize that outside of North America, it may be better value to default to VRLA chemistries, since those markets basically drank the AGM koolaid in the 90's and quality deep cycling FLA is now a niche speciality imported item.

I believe Full River is a leading brand there? Can you share others that are considered better?

I know the "lead crystal" type has made inroads there and South Africa as well. Their hyperbolic claims and concealing the actual factory always smelled scammy to me, but user reports indicate it's at least as good as the AGM usually sold in those markets.

If you did want the extra longevity of FLA and were willing to pay the extra, then look at Rolls / Surrette, pretty sure available there, and lots better than Trojan / Deka and the other US makers of quality FLA discussed above.

All of which can (& should regularly) be equalized

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Exile

Did this testing do a conditioning/equalizing on the Lifeline?

Yes, and did not help much in "recovering" lost capacity from long term PSOC abuse

Both Northstar and Odyssey withstood that better than Lifeline, even though they weren't (couldn't be) equalized.

But Firefly's resistance to PSOC was orders of magnitude better, in fact lost very very little capacity, so long as their recovery protocol (which does not include equalizing) is run regularly, ideally as often as shore power or other plentiful energy sources are available.

By the way, for those with a large LFP bank aboard, that can act as such a source at times, in order to run these maintenance protocols on your "reserve" lead bank(s). Already discussed at length in several "hybrid" threads, so let's not derail further here.

[Shrew]

I had Lifeline AGM batteries on my previous boat for 9 years with no issues. I never equalized or conditioned them and never had any issues. I have Lifeline AGM's on my current boat which are at least 5 years old. Also no issues.

I will admit that I only use the boat on the weekends and for 2-3 weeks a summer, so it is plugged into shore power during the week. I live in the northeast US, so the boat is only used 6 months a year. It might be more difficult for someone on anchor for months on end to keep them consistently topped off.

AS said Lifeline publishes documentation on how to equalize/condition the batteries, but I've never done it (to my knowledge).

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Exile

Did this testing do a conditioning/equalizing on the Lifeline? I don't recall.

Calling it a "preventative" measure is also confusing. There's no way to prevent sulfation, only to try and minimize it. Conditioning/equalizing can help by removing some of it as batteries age & capacity inevitably decreases

> There's no way to prevent sulfation

That statement is 100% false. "Sulfation" is not a cut and dry, black and white state change, but a variable gradual "greyscale" condition.

If you are equalizing regularly, you are catching the hardening process in the early stages when the lead sulfate layer is still pretty amorphous, softer and smaller sized crystals, and thus easier to break up the layer depositing on the negative plates.

In other words that early stage is **more reversible**.

If the chronic PSOC continues without any treatment, the crystalline structures grow & stabilize into a thicker tougher barrier.

That is what **permanently** reduces the battery’s exposed active material, and thus cripples its performance.

Raising the battery temperature to 55+°C while equalizing also helps dissolve the deposits while they are still amorphous.

If you have a relatively accurate SoC guesstimation meter, track your "voltage under load vs SoC mapping" over time.

When (ideally before) you see voltage sag start worsening, that is a sign you should be increasing the frequency of your equalization cycles.

And yes, not everyone can, most don't care enough, just replace your bank more frequntly I know I know, just putting the info out there, it's your rig, do what you like with it, just inform your choices not (fail to) act out of ignorance.

Originally Posted by Exile

And this maybe help confuse:
…
Barely decipherable, except maybe unnecessarily confusing conditioning & equalizing.

My apologies for not communicating clearly enough.

Not just to you, but for all members, feel free to ask specific questions (maybe after googling) and

I'll be happy to clarify any terms or points you're not grokking.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Raising the battery temperature to 55+°C while equalizing also helps dissolve the deposits while they are still amorphous.

If you have a relatively accurate SoC guesstimation meter, track your "voltage under load vs SoC mapping" over time.

I'll be happy to clarify any terms or points you're not grokking.

were did the 55+c temperature come from?

What is grokking?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Exile

I'm pretty sure all lead-acid batts. sulfate, whether they are flooded, AGM, Gel, or "FLA Sealed"

SLA would be less confusing for that last.

Out of that category, only (some) AGM and GEL are true deep cycling, so the "wet cell SLA" type really aren't relevant to most such discussions.

____
And yes, any lead chemistry batt sulfates under PSOC abuse.

And yes, very clearly established that the degree of harmful impact varies between AGM makers.

Firefly's are unique, their "secret sauce" allows their recovery protocol (not an equalization process) to completely reverse the "incipient" sulfation, or at least it's measurable effects on capacity and performance.

I suppose it's possible if you just let their SoH% walk down indefinitely never using the restore procedure, the capacity loss may eventually become unrecoverable as well.

Which would be a huge waste, no point in paying the premium if you're not going to take advantage of their unique benefit.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Exile

the problem with equalizing more conventional(?) AGMs like Trojan is they gas off electrolyte which is not replaceable. I suspect (but don't know for sure) this is why some mfgs. advise not to equalize

All VRLA allow for pressure to be released as gasses are produced.

And all will lose some electrolyte in doing so.

Which is exactly why Lifeline states their equalization protocol should only be used when you see PSOC is impacting performance.

I agree that in their design intention to allow regular equalization, the recombining valve may be one of the main factors.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Pete7

What is grokking?

truly, deeply understanding someone or something

Top result shows up in google for me right in the auto-complete

And I'm sure 50° or 60° would be fine, why I spec'd a range

[Pete7]

A hot bath is 37c, not sure I want my FLA batteries at 60c (140f). Still save using an inverter and an induction hob to cook with.



Pete

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Can't really speak to construction, especially case and so forth... but what A64 said about Lifelines sounds likely given the Concorde affiliation. Odysseys are a "thin plate" design, likely not at all the same cell construction

I believe the founders of both Northstar and Concorde/Lifeline came out of working at Odyssey/Enersys, who were the original inventors of this TPPL technology while working under US military contracts.

MS mentions Kalyan J. of EnerSys and Dave V. of Lifeline when emphasizing how important high-C charging rates are for their products's longevity.

That does not imply anything about any being "better" than the others, all three are considered top-notch.

But I would think it means their internal construction techniques are pretty similar at least at a basic level.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Pete7

A hot bath is 37c, not sure I want my FLA batteries at 60c

Yes did not mean to imply anyone out there in userland should actually go to such extremes 8-)

Nor that it would be suitable for AGM desulfation, as it is specifically part of an equalizing protocol. But maybe Lifeline?

I'd guess maybe 45° would be OK, but of course would talk to one of the Dave's first.

[sailorboy1]

Lots of related thread drift and individual statements and heresy. But not a lot of actual manufacturer info to backup stuff.

Far as my original questions all that have been answered with back up is that Lifelines can be equalized. Rolls and Trojan say no (no one actually post a manufacturer link to back those up including me).

Given how many are posting they have the Lifelines and haven't ever done an EQ, i wonder if it really just comes down to Lifeline saying “what the heck you get to that point what is there to lose”.

It is interesting the amount forum battery “facts” are really just group repeats that aren't supported by manufacturers. Falls into a “if you repeat it enough it must be true”.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Am I right to infer you wanted me to google it for you? Why wouldn't you just call Odyssey tech support?

http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume..._Procedure.pdf

No, wasn't what I meant, but thanks for that link. Haven't felt the need to fool with it... but for my earlier comment, it just hadn't occurred to me they wouldn't include that kind of procedure, if recommended, in the "owner's manual" document.

-Chris

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Given how many are posting they have the Lifelines and haven't ever done an EQ, i wonder if it really just comes down to Lifeline saying “what the heck you get to that point what is there to lose”.

Can't speak for others, but we are most often on shorepower -- or running the generator (and chargers) anyway -- so don't often encounter a PSOC situation, usually only a few weeks out of the year...

-Chris