Alternator identification

[Sternwake]

Thank you all.

I've definitely got external regulation on the brain, though it could certainly be unneeded complication with perhaps little to no benefit in this application. My desire to gain experinece with balmar's external regulator is definitely an influencing variable.

Kind of overloaded at the moment with info and options regarding this, and regular life, and a lack of sleep and breathing too much wildfire smoke.

Gonna step back for a bit, talk to boat owner later today, present what I've learned so far, see what/where I should aim my further research. Any fairly immediate charging needs away from port can be handled by genset and Magnum.

He is pretty well set on Lifeline AGMs though, No flooded batteries, he's pretty repulsed by the watering and offgassing, even though its highly unlikely he'll be the one doing the watering.

The start batteries are Lifelines already.

Its not going to be a daily deep cycled battery bank. I'd guess no more than 5 to 6 days away from dock, with the magnum inverter charger to do its thing via shorepower on return. No solar.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Sternwake

Thank you all.

I've definitely got external regulation on the brain, though it could certainly be unneeded complication with perhaps little to no benefit in this application. My desire to gain experinece with balmar's external regulator is definitely an influencing variable.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Its not going to be a daily deep cycled battery bank. I'd guess no more than 5 to 6 days away from dock, with the magnum inverter charger to do its thing via shorepower on return. No solar.

These may be appropriate for you:


How Alternators & Regulators Work PLUS External vs. Internal Regulators (by Maine Sail): http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com...d.php?t=125392


and



Alternator Regulators - The Differences between ARS-5 and MC-614 Units (scroll UP to see reply #5)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowner....php?p=1103132


That seems like a good application for AGMs and Lifelines are well respected. As long as he keeps them charged, they should do well. AGMs don't like PSOC. If he goes off the beaten track in the future, he will have to rethink his charging system, most likely add solar, but for now, looks good.


Good luck on your presentations. Options are the right approach.

[Sternwake]

Thank you Stu.

The Longer term future of the boat is now more uncertain than a week ago, but he wants to use it a lot in the next 6 to 12 months for week long stretches without overnighting in port.

8 or 10 Lifeline GPL-4CTs will be the new house bank. That's no longer a variable.

So 880 or 1200 Ah of house battery capacity.

To me this screams Balmar MC-614, especially because all batteries exposed to engine heat, and huge depleted AGM bank can force an alternator past its limits.

He's good with that.

Delco28SI. A single one for now, on Starboard Detroit Diesel.

He liked the idea of it already being ugraded to external regulation, higher rated diodes and stator/rotor by Compass Marine.

I explained that Dual V belts limited output to ~130 amps. Even the unmodified 28SI will likely be fine derated to 130 amps by the MC-614, no need to really go for the CMI modified 28SI. He still likes the idea of the CMI 28SI. I told him I could convert 2 stock delco 28SI's to external modification, for about the price of one CMI 28SI, and the balmar MC-614H can control both.

Owner waffling. Unsure, not quite fully understanding. Gonna talk again soon.

I brought up the possibility of a serpentine belt upgrade, but that no Product hits came up for fitting to a Detroit diesel, and a new crank pulley likely has to be machined. I've no idea the cost on having this done...Any ball park figures?

880 or 1200 Ah of Lifeline house battery bank requires 176 amps or 240 amps minimum to meet the minimum spec'd 20% charge rate. and a single 160 or 200 amp alternator derated to 130 amps is far from optimal. The Magnum inverter charger tops out at 107 amps.

I'd be happiest doing this with a serpentine belt and allowing alternator temperature to be the limiting factor and get closer to 200 amps output. I'd be happier with two alternators for upto 400 amp potential but two at 260 is good too.

I'd be happy with one CMI 28SI, and one stock one I convert to external regultion.

The owner's time was short, and his eyes glazing over on the options so I left it there. He wants to get on it, expressed interest in ordering parts Soon.

I left yesterday with the 'OK' to have his guy order the CMI-28SI a Balmar MC-614H with temp and alternator temp sensors, the Lifeline gpl-4CT's a new FTZ crimper and tinned cable and heavy wall lugs.

The derating to 130 amps by dual V belts is my my hangup. I want those depleted 880 AH minimum of Lifelines to have more amperage available, but he is not really concerned whether the batteries last 3 years or 5 as he does not expect to still own it at that time. That was a total guess on my part as to the difference in expected lifespans meeting that 20% vs not

I pointed out how he hates listening to genset, and while underway the more alternator amperage the less the genset will potentially have to be run.

more waffling.

So Any Idea on the price to have a 10 groove serpentine pulley machined for a detroit diesel?

I want to meet that 20% minimum charge rate.

There is the possibility of getting one of the existing 27SI's fully operational and converted to external regulation, but this is likely only 80s more potential. Enough for 880 but not 1200 AH.

I'm under a bit of pressure to get things ordered soon.

I guess potential serpentine belt upgrades are easy enough to add later as is the second alternator, as opposed to doing it now/soon.

Gonna hit submit reply, and go talk to owner again.

[Sternwake]

The CMI modified 28Si is likely to be nixed, in favor of a Leece Neville 4890JB.

Isolated negative, and apparently easier to convert to external regulation than the 28Si

320 amp rating.

Dual V belt limiting factor still, but will be externally controlled.

[Sternwake]

Egad, this boats is a mess. Bunch of stuff I noticed today i should have noticed last time I was on it.


The alternator is driven, not by the Detroit diesel's crankshaft pulley, but what i assume is a waterpump or perhaps camshaft pulley. If it were an american pushrod gas v8, this pulley is located where the camshaft would be. This pulley driving the alternator has a two groove v belt, that spins counterclockwise. Dual 3/8" V belts, which match the drive pulley, but the alternators use a 1/2 inch wide Pulley, that appears to be stamped steel rather then machined from cold rolled steel.

There is about 3/32" parallel misalignment. The pulley on this 27Si would need to be slid more towards the external fan to align properly. Washers and spacers would cause more parallel misalignment.
There appears to be a spacer between fan and pulley, not sure though. This parallel misalignment on Sb engine might not be easy to rectify. I did not check port engine alignment, but expect similar or worse.

The Sb engine at a couple hundred higher rpm was able to make 55 amps. today, the port engine alternator nothing, again.



Diesel Genset purred, made 28 VAC, according to the analog panel meter. Obviously not going to power the magnum inverter charger.



55 amps from alternator recorded and 3 fully charged battery banks, inverter off other loads off.

Owner wanted to take boat out for a short spin, said his regular mechanic went over everything, and called it good to go.

Left slip, Steering hydraulics failed. made it back into slip. Bruised heel when I jumped to dock to fend it off. Not 18 anymore either. can barely put any weight on it a few hours later.




3/8 inch drive pulley/ belts limiting factor
CCW rotation limiting factor. The 28Si' s internal fans would not have worked very well rotating CCW

Would love to utilize the CW spinning crankshaft pulley at 7" diameter, but lots of fabrication required to mount a j-180 cradle here.

I think the plan is convert same 320 amp Leece Neville alternator to external regulation install on port engine, even though 320 amps will never be realized with dual 3/8 inch belts

Limit it via Balmar mc-614 to sub belt smoking amperage.
Leave functioning 27Si on Starboard engine to contribute what it can to the Leece's constrained output. 55 amps is not nothing,
Carry extra 3/8" belts.

Potentially replace functioning 27Si with another converted L-N 320 in future. Depends on how much the one can make with dual 3/8" belts, and how much other things the boat is likely to need before it can be used as desired.

[jimbunyard]

If you're running off the accessory drive, you need to find out what the actual drive rpm is, not the engine rpm. If you have 2 stroke DDA's, accessory drive speed may be about half engine speed, though my memory is foggy on this...

[Sternwake]

I need to get an Optical tachometer.

However, there is the limiting factor of the accessory drive pulley~ 6 inches in diameter, its dual 3/8" belt width and its counter clockwise rotation.

I'll be working within these limiting factors as:

Using the crankshaft pulley instead, requiring custom fabrication of new bracket, this idea is nixed by owner,
Changing accessory drive belt pulley, Nixed by me as it appears to require partial engine disassembly

COnverting one or potentially two Leece Neville 4890jb's to external regulation is were my research lies, as well as a Dual V belt pulley for it/them.

This alternator pulley is also a limiting factor as most I have seen for sale made from cold rolled steel, are for 1/2 inch belts, not 3/8".

3/8 inch belt in a half inch pulley might be oK for the 27Si's limited output, but Unacceptable to me with a more capable alternator I am in charge of installing.

The words "machine shop' seem to cause a lot of anxiety and alarm with boat owner. and have him back way the heck off on doing any engine based charging upgrade at all. Not sure why. Last time I brought it up he was all of a sudden fine with the 27si's peasly 55 amps and I had to explain how incredibly inadequate they are, again for what he wants to do.

A Balmar mc-614h regulator will be used to keep the hopefully matched set of perfectly aligned 3/8" V belts, from smoking. How much amperage they can handle with nearly 180 degrees of wrap, as yet unknown.

'Handle temporarily' and 'handle safely' longer term, obviously pretty far apart. Happy middle ground unknown as yet, but basically so are the acceptable extremes. There are large air filters for the engines.

But anything is better than the pathetic output of the existing functional 27si's ~55 amps.

I've yet to study the mc-614's manual or Mainsail's writeup on programming them.
Laptop overload.

[wsmurdoch]

There were both bidirectional and reverse fans for the older (DN10, 10SI, and 12SI) Delco single external fan alternators. There were also some alternators (both Delco and other) that were 'native' CCW and had a left hand nut on the shaft. They were used on a CW rotating engine when the alternator was installed backwards (pulley towards the engine).

I don't know about the 28SI or other large alternators. The Delco parts list shows a variety of rotor part numbers for the alternator. I don't know if any were CCW rotors for this dual internal fan alternator. This is where your alternator guy could be of help. http://www.delcoremy.com/find-a-part...lternator/28si

Bill

[Sternwake]

The Delco 28Si idea had been nixed before I was aware of the CCW rotation.

Apparently there is currently a 3 to 4 week lead time for the CMI modified 28SI. and RC does not want it making more than 160 amps on dual 1/2 inch v belts, much less 3/8", AND spinning backwards.

Issue now is the 3/8 wide Accessory pulley and belts. No 3/8 inch dual V Pulleys exist for the Leece Neville 4890jb as far as I know of.

Apparently it is the same pulley as the Delco 27SI, the alternators currently on the boat, but at 16 to 26$, new will be ordered. They look deep enough that a 3/8 belt in a 1/2 inch pulley will not bottom out anytime soon.

Wonder if the V can just be machined a bit deeper for some more margin before it can touch bottom. proper Alignment might require a machine shop taking some off the back of the pulley anyway.

Converting the Leece Neville 4890JB to external regulation is causing some anxiety.

My alternator guy's responses are usually brief and obtuse and what he considers a stupid question usually go unanswered.

Latest unanswered question is the Keyway. Is this key normally provided with alternator or pulley? easily available elsewhere? Never worked with an alternator this big that had a keyway before

I expect removing the pulley on teh 27SI to use its keys would be a tool throwing curse fest. Trying to minimize those.

[wsmurdoch]

For some leads on high amperage bidirectional or counter clockwise rotation alternators try...
https://www.elreg.com/products/alternators/
choosing alternators, complete units, 12V, J-180 mount, and either bidirectional or BI-CW-CCW along with whatever amps you need.

By the way, do both of the engines rotate in the same direction?

Bill

[Sternwake]

One Leece-Neville prestolite alternator has been ordered, along with the MC-614h, Pulleys, and 8 Lifeline gpl-4cts.

It has a Bi directional fan design.

Committed.

My alternator guy has me contacting some places for a LN VR substitute adapter, which should make the conversion to external regulation cleaner and simpler. I've still got some anxiety regarding performing this procedure.

Both DD engines do rotate the same direction.
Both alternators spin CCW driven by accessory pulley.

[Sternwake]

While I knew it was a behemoth, Its true size on unboxing, was a bit shocking.

On the right is a newish made in Malaysia 50/120 amp Nippon Denso clone (maxes out at 109 amps)



The fan design on this Leece is NOT bidirectional, but there are bidirectional fans available, and one has been ordered.

It does not look as if converting to external regulation will be too difficult to achieve.

Famous last words.

[GordMay]

How to calculate your alternators RPM's:
You measure your crank shaft pulley size, and then your alternator pulley size.
Divide your alternator pulley size into your crank pulley size, to get the ratio.
Multiply your engine RPM by your pulley ratio = Alternator RPM

Example: If you have a 6" crank pulley and a 2" alternator pulley.
6 ÷ 2=3.
You have a 3 to one ratio.
You multiply your engine RPM by 3, so if your engine is turning 1500 RPM's your alternator is turning 4500 RPM's.
Note: you do not count the diameter of the other pulleys on you engine, just your crank pulley and alternator pulley.

According to Balmar:
Single belt, approximately 3/8" - choose no more than 75 amps 12v, or 65 amp 24v.
See: Alternator Output / Belt Configuration (pg.3)
“TIPS TO SELECTING A HIGH OUTPUT ALTERNATOR REPLACEMENT FOR YOUR ENGINE” ~ Balmar ➥ http://www.marinewarehouse.net/image...or%20Guide.pdf

• single 3/8" vbelt supports up to apx. 70 amps
• single 1/2" vbelt supports up to apx. 94 amps
• double 3/8" vbelts supports up to apx. 140 amps
• double 1/2" vbelts supports up to apx. 300 amps
• single 8 groove serpentine belt supports up to apx. 300 amps
Exception to carefully note: If your use a single 3/8" belt exceeding 70 amps up to a 94 amp load, be aware it will work, but possible ramifications are increased side loading of the water pump, alternator, and v-belt. This will probably decrease water pump and belt lifespans significantly. Extra spares are a must - Do not forget a spare water pump, not just the impeller. The corresponding limit for a single 1/2" v-belt is 120 amps.
“Alternator Belts and Cables” ➥ ZRD FAQ - Belts and Cables

[Sternwake]

Well written accurate INfo is always appreciated.

In this case the alternator drive pulley is NOT the crank pulley but the accessory pulley, which spins CCW on both engines.
Some info I found, and I am not sure it applies to this particular Detroit Diesel, is that it spins 2.4 times for every 1 turn of the crank pulley.

I'd love to have an actual optical tachometer and know for sure.

I found the power curves of the Delco 27SI, and if the existing 27Si is working as it should, then its ~25 amps max at idle might have it outperform the Leece, at idle, but a few hundred more rpm and the leece will run up against the Balmar regulator's belt manager, where the 27Si maxes out at ~55 to 60 amps.
If the 27Si is working as it should, then the accessory pully is likely not spinning 2.4 times faster than crank pulley.

However, since I cannot change that accessory pulley size(6"), and am not remounting alternator to use 7 inch crank pulley, there are only two variables I have control of.

One being the alternator itself, the other, its pulley size.

The later of which I only found 82 and 79mm options, and machining it smaller is an option. A machine shop mighty be required, to achieve perfect pulley alignment, anyway, as the existing 27SI, the pulley needs to move towards the rotor which would mean shaving the ears, or machining the pulley to sit ~3/32 inches closer to the fan.

A Leece Neville rep emailed me back this morning and said they do not make a CCW fan for this alternator but the Bidirectional fan's flow is not that much different than the unidirectional, and not to worry about it.

I was able to find very few search hits regarding CCW alternator fans, for any alternator, much less a Leece.

Since dual 3/8 inch V belts will never handle this alternator at full output, and I'll be using the Balmar belt manager to limit output, the less than Ideal bidirectional fan should not make much of a difference.

[jimbunyard]

You don't need an optical tach if your engine tach is accurate. If you know the engine model, you can look up the gears and divide the tooth count to determine the accessory drive rpm.

For instance (if my cursory look is correct) the accessory drive on an 8v71 has 38 teeth, the cam gear has 66 teeth, so the ratio is 1.74:1. Since the cam speed is the same as engine speed on a 2 stroke engine, at 700 rpm idle, accessory drive rpm would be 1218 rpm.