Balmar Alternator Temperate Protection Settings

[SwamiB]

Wow. Big system. To me. Lol. Have you not asked a marine electrician/engineer to assess your system?

170A alternator for 1200AH Lithium, eh? ... with an over heating alternator. What charging current are you expecting, trying to push in? 6 x 200ah lithiums could, theoretically take 150-200ah charging, depending on manufacturer's specs.

Another solution is a second alternator ... then you could ramp right up to max charge current in the shortest possible time with theoretically HALF the heat from each one... which might NOT overheat at 1200rpm.

You realise that any alternator is only ~50% efficient. If you want 1460watts (14.6v x 100A) charging power, you are sucking 2920watts (4hp) from your motor! 1460 watts is bleeding out of your alternator in the form of wasted heat into the room! It's like a heat pump itself.

All in all, any final solution must be to cool your alternator(s) better ... or halve their load.

[Networker]

Originally Posted by SwamiB

There's one cheap quick fix to MAYBE lower alt temp and that is a direct fan onto and through the alternator -- because obviously your revs at 1200 are not cooling enough by its own fan. And who wants to run at 3000rpm at anchor. A 100mm 12v computer fan with cowling, or just a dashboard fan, MIGHT fix it. If alt temp (100c) is way higher than room temp, then guess what, the alternator needs more cool air through it. You could always duct some of the incoming fresh air straight onto the alternator. Problem solved.

My temp is 78-82 outside, 84-86 inside before I fire it up, and can get to 92-106 after a few hours or motoring and if I don’t open a door. The alt is close to a sound proof, insulated door and maybe the heat blasted back is making it hot, but a fan might help, but it has to be there because of the engine pulleys and layout. I do need to trace the hoses as I have a ton of unconnected vent hoses and need see what’s doing what; someone installed them; they’re just now a rats nest and need to be looked at.


I’m keen to explore that and will, racing cars and off road dudes have the same problems as us and use things like this: https://www.summitracing.com/search/...SAAEgJvVPD_BwE

I’m so keen to have someone hand make my diodes and make them external and way away from the rest of the system, a diode bridge is something people have done. Fan seems cool and tested tho, and heat sinks too, like they for CPU’s. It’s solvable, just how fast and when is my issue.


You just pick your amps vs cooling and it’s a helpful trade off, I don’t know and haven’t researched yet, why a pulley driven fan can’t help? It’s spinning at 3-6k rpm, why not add a fan and cool as it’s spinning anyway vs electric?

[SwamiB]

A belt driven fan is only going to move around warm-hot AMBIENT air, (virtually useless towards your goals) and is way more work than 12v mini fan.

And, the best air to blow onto your alternator is fresh, cool, outside ... ducted air ... even 50 - 75mm fan with flexitube would do.

Consider this:
Your existing 2 big fans are exhaust, right? Sucking from where? A warm forward room? A warm, stuffy bilge? Cracks through the coachhouse walls? Even a small duct from an exterior (waterproof) vent, straight onto your alternator would help.

Btw, despite 3 requests, you've still not answered my query about how much current you are trying to demand from your 170A Balmar alternator and push into your lithiums as fast as possible. Are you too embarrassed to tell me?

I read from your otherposts that you upgraded from AGM to lithium keeping the same alternator and that you have massive drain appliances. Can you not see that your own power needs and desires are now showing up the weakest link on your system ... ie, the heat output of the alternator.

Did you know there are 12v and 24v 300A and 400A RV alternators for power consumers like you. They have dual fans. If you so rich, maybe time to INCREASE your power generation rather than fret over an insufficent alternator's heat at 1200rpm for 150Amps or whatever you're asking of it.

https://www.enginemaster.com.au/cvf-racing-gm-1wire-300a-chrome-1-wire-high-ampera

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.dcpowerinc.com/collections/300-amp-spx-high-output-alternator&ved=2ahUKEwiFpb3S25j8AhVs9nMBHXtQAwEQFn oECGkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2IDr3tshlFUyOREvnutIY_

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mechman.com/400-amp-high-output-alternator-1996-2004-gm-truck-4-3l-4-8l-5-3l-5-7l-6-0l/&ved=2ahUKEwiXwOyp3Jj8AhU_8HMBHYUDCQAQFnoECDYQAQ&u sg=AOvVaw1cAUMLx43ToenaqJWVhrkf

[Emmalina]

I like Balmar products but think the alts are over priced. I bought a high output alt of ebay for 100usd it will put out 220A but I have an external Balmar reg and reduce it to 120A with the temp sensor it never gets to more than 80deg even after charging 800A of lithium for hours. I have a spare ready to drop in if needed .

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Networker

My temp is 78-82 outside, 84-86 inside before I fire it up, and can get to 92-106 after a few hours or motoring and if I don’t open a door. The alt is close to a sound proof, insulated door and maybe the heat blasted back is making it hot, but a fan might help, but it has to be there because of the engine pulleys and layout. I do need to trace the hoses as I have a ton of unconnected vent hoses and need see what’s doing what; someone installed them; they’re just now a rats nest and need to be looked at.


I’m keen to explore that and will, racing cars and off road dudes have the same problems as us and use things like this: https://www.summitracing.com/search/...SAAEgJvVPD_BwE

I’m so keen to have someone hand make my diodes and make them external and way away from the rest of the system, a diode bridge is something people have done. Fan seems cool and tested tho, and heat sinks too, like they for CPU’s. It’s solvable, just how fast and when is my issue.


You just pick your amps vs cooling and it’s a helpful trade off, I don’t know and haven’t researched yet, why a pulley driven fan can’t help? It’s spinning at 3-6k rpm, why not add a fan and cool as it’s spinning anyway vs electric?

Alternators in race cars and off-road are completely different from boats. They run at high RPMs, with good airflow, and a low load, only running the ignition system of the engine and charging a small battery. Sometimes they turn the alternator off altogether to get that extra few HP from the engine.

On boats alternators are low RPM, in an enclosed space with bad airflow, charging huge batteries and large loads.

Those summit fans are not for alternators, but for engine radiators. For an alternator, use a blower fan, with ducting to pull in air from outside. Alternators have a built-in fan that does a decent job moving hot air around. You need to bring in the cooler air from outside.

[Networker]

Originally Posted by SwamiB

Wow. Big system. To me. Lol. Have you not asked a marine electrician/engineer to assess your system?

170A alternator for 1200AH Lithium, eh? ... with an over heating alternator. What charging current are you expecting, trying to push in? 6 x 200ah lithiums could, theoretically take 150-200ah charging, depending on manufacturer's specs.

Another solution is a second alternator ... then you could ramp right up to max charge current in the shortest possible time with theoretically HALF the heat from each one... which might NOT overheat at 1200rpm.

You realise that any alternator is only ~50% efficient. If you want 1460watts (14.6v x 100A) charging power, you are sucking 2920watts (4hp) from your motor! 1460 watts is bleeding out of your alternator in the form of wasted heat into the room! It's like a heat pump itself.

All in all, any final solution must be to cool your alternator(s) better ... or halve their load.

I have a big bank, but am judicious in its use, i.e, at rest, freezer and fans, it’s 6.6a / hour. I can drive that down if I leave the boat, but this my background noise without the Quattro and inverter. On average, I try it use 12ah/hour max, that’s between cooking, inverting, starlink, Mabru AirCon, etc.. If I draw 250-375 or more/day, I can bank 150 or so via solar, want the rest via alternator. So far the Wakespeed / Balmar gives me 80-90ah back / hour, so if I do 1 hour in am, and if needed, 1 hour in evening for 160-180 ah back, plus my banked 150 via solar, it’s sufficient.

I’m good as using as little as possible, aware when I want to watch Emily in Paris with my wife via my Starlink over AppleTV, that I’ll pay the piper the next day. And there are days we dive and the boat is asleep, so it evens out, but that’s where we are usage and production withoit the alternator.

I’m always on the hunt for more out of this system, hence why I was attracted by the original 105c comment you made about not worrying about it. But I do get I can get more by cooling more and will do it.

I’m against the generator though, even though it’s the “easiest” choice; I got Rick of sustainability and want to keep living that lifestyle.

[Networker]

Originally Posted by SwamiB

A belt driven fan is only going to move around warm-hot AMBIENT air, (virtually useless towards your goals) and is way more work than 12v mini fan.

And, the best air to blow onto your alternator is fresh, cool, outside ... ducted air ... even 50 - 75mm fan with flexitube would do.

Consider this:
Your existing 2 big fans are exhaust, right? Sucking from where? A warm forward room? A warm, stuffy bilge? Cracks through the coachhouse walls? Even a small duct from an exterior (waterproof) vent, straight onto your alternator would help.

Btw, despite 3 requests, you've still not answered my query about how much current you are trying to demand from your 170A Balmar alternator and push into your lithiums as fast as possible. Are you too embarrassed to tell me?

I read from your otherposts that you upgraded from AGM to lithium keeping the same alternator and that you have massive drain appliances. Can you not see that your own power needs and desires are now showing up the weakest link on your system ... ie, the heat output of the alternator.

Did you know there are 12v and 24v 300A and 400A RV alternators for power consumers like you. They have dual fans. If you so rich, maybe time to INCREASE your power generation rather than fret over an insufficent alternator's heat at 1200rpm for 150Amps or whatever you're asking of it.

https://www.enginemaster.com.au/cvf-racing-gm-1wire-300a-chrome-1-wire-high-ampera

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.dcpowerinc.com/collections/300-amp-spx-high-output-alternator&ved=2ahUKEwiFpb3S25j8AhVs9nMBHXtQAwEQFn oECGkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2IDr3tshlFUyOREvnutIY_

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mechman.com/400-amp-high-output-alternator-1996-2004-gm-truck-4-3l-4-8l-5-3l-5-7l-6-0l/&ved=2ahUKEwiXwOyp3Jj8AhU_8HMBHYUDCQAQFnoECDYQAQ&u sg=AOvVaw1cAUMLx43ToenaqJWVhrkf

This is great. Let me investigate these.

[SwamiB]

Now that I finally know your power usages and charging habits (your previous post was somehow delayed till after my own) it is crystal clear that (1) your engine room cooling is a problem, and (2) charging at 1200 rpm is under-running the alternator fan. Half current (~85A) at only 40% cooling efficiency is asking for an overheat.

Because, demanding 80-90 amps per hour out of a Balmar 170A marine generator is NOT a greedy ask. I had assumed you were trying to get 120, 150 amps. That's why I asked you 3 times what current you were charging at.

Balmar would tell you that 170 Amps at 105 deg at maximum alternator revs would be ok for peak power output (say a maximum of 15 mins) because such alternators were designed for lead acid and AGM charge profiles (initially high but tapering off), whereas lithiums like max current at maximum voltage till 95% full. That's why your voltage tweak solution is silly.

Whereas, for the XT-170, 130 - 150A at 100 deg should be OK for continuous running endlessly .... but only if the alternator is sufficiently cooled via its internal fan. 100 - 105 degs for 14.6v @ 90amps (1310w) is NOT a huge output for a 2400watt alternator. But, if your engine room is high temp, and your alternator fan speed is low, them your alternator will obviously overheat.

Perhaps whoever outfitted the boat has over sound-proofed the engine room but with cooling air starvation. The solution to many of life's problems is not always to buy something or tweak the settings. It may be in the environmental set up.

One other set up option is possible -- that the engine to alternator pulley ratio is too low. At 1200 engine rpm, what is the alternator rpm? At 3000 rpm what is it? Check with laser tacho or measure the two pulleys and do the maths. Then check Balmar's max output speed specs. It's 7500 rpm for the XT-170. Then make sure its geared 2.5 : 1. Even if so, your 1200rpm engine charge speed is only 40% cooling (1200 x 2.5 / 7500). If someone has set it up only 2:1, then your alternator fan is only running at 1200 x 2 / 7500 = 32% when you charge at anchor. That's why its overheating! ... even when asking only 85A. Look up Balmar's heat vs output vs revs specifications. It's all up there.

So, after all this to and fro, after all your withholding of relevant facts, we ascertain what you need to do.

Yes, I sound a bit pissed, because in my first post I asked to know all your equipment specs and your operational parameters ... to HELP diagnose your situation. If you had humbly submitted those in the beginning (like most members do) we would have reached the same conclusions far quicker.

Over and out.

Btw, a Thank You would be nice.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Networker

I can’t get an off the shelf larger alternator than the Balmar 170 for my Volvo penta md22, however with machine work, I could. I just haven’t had time.

What is the limit?

How about this belt option and one of their large 215A alternators. There looks like a typo on the list of VP engines:

https://electromaax.com/Serpentine-P...-Penta-Engines

[Networker]

Originally Posted by SwamiB

Now that I finally know your power usages and charging habits (your previous post was somehow delayed till after my own) it is crystal clear that (1) your engine room cooling is a problem, and (2) charging at 1200 rpm is under-running the alternator fan. Half current (~85A) at only 40% cooling efficiency is asking for an overheat.

Because, demanding 80-90 amps per hour out of a Balmar 170A marine generator is NOT a greedy ask. I had assumed you were trying to get 120, 150 amps. That's why I asked you 3 times what current you were charging at.

Balmar would tell you that 170 Amps at 105 deg at maximum alternator revs would be ok for peak power output (say a maximum of 15 mins) because such alternators were designed for lead acid and AGM charge profiles (initially high but tapering off), whereas lithiums like max current at maximum voltage till 95% full. That's why your voltage tweak solution is silly.

Whereas, for the XT-170, 130 - 150A at 100 deg should be OK for continuous running endlessly .... but only if the alternator is sufficiently cooled via its internal fan. 100 - 105 degs for 14.6v @ 90amps (1310w) is NOT a huge output for a 2400watt alternator. But, if your engine room is high temp, and your alternator fan speed is low, them your alternator will obviously overheat.

Perhaps whoever outfitted the boat has over sound-proofed the engine room but with cooling air starvation. The solution to many of life's problems is not always to buy something or tweak the settings. It may be in the environmental set up.

One other set up option is possible -- that the engine to alternator pulley ratio is too low. At 1200 engine rpm, what is the alternator rpm? At 3000 rpm what is it? Check with laser tacho or measure the two pulleys and do the maths. Then check Balmar's max output speed specs. It's 7500 rpm for the XT-170. Then make sure its geared 2.5 : 1. Even if so, your 1200rpm engine charge speed is only 40% cooling (1200 x 2.5 / 7500). If someone has set it up only 2:1, then your alternator fan is only running at 1200 x 2 / 7500 = 32% when you charge at anchor. That's why its overheating! ... even when asking only 85A. Look up Balmar's heat vs output vs revs specifications. It's all up there.

So, after all this to and fro, after all your withholding of relevant facts, we ascertain what you need to do.

Yes, I sound a bit pissed, because in my first post I asked to know all your equipment specs and your operational parameters ... to HELP diagnose your situation. If you had humbly submitted those in the beginning (like most members do) we would have reached the same conclusions far quicker.

Over and out.

Btw, a Thank You would be nice.

Thank you by the way. It is indeed a 2:1 gear ratio/pulley, so I’ll need to get a smaller pulley for the alternator if possible.

[Paradox111]

Charging LiFePo4 (LFP) to 3.4V(x4=13.6v) and 3.5V(x4=14.0v)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pijPu7t-akM

[Networker]

Originally Posted by Paradox111

Charging LiFePo4 (LFP) to 3.4V(x4=13.6v) and 3.5V(x4=14.0v)

Super informative

[lateral]

Considerable scale down from above but....
I am about to install 460Ahr of LiFePO4 to replace 464Ahr FLA.
Originally I had a Hitachi 55A trying to keep the FLA's full- didn't work.
So, changed alternators to 120A Bosch Automotive with ducted air from outside
and externally regulated. Completely different ball game. Bosch never went over
80°C even when down to 50% SOC.
It will be interesting to see what happens with constant current demand of the Lithiums.
I will be derating to approx. 80A (MC618); driven via a V belt.

[Networker]

Originally Posted by lateral

Considerable scale down from above but....
I am about to install 460Ahr of LiFePO4 to replace 464Ahr FLA.
Originally I had a Hitachi 55A trying to keep the FLA's full- didn't work.
So, changed alternators to 120A Bosch Automotive with ducted air from outside
and externally regulated. Completely different ball game. Bosch never went over
80°C even when down to 50% SOC.
It will be interesting to see what happens with constant current demand of the Lithiums.
I will be derating to approx. 80A (MC618); driven via a V belt.

Let me know the difference once the Lithium batteries are installed.

After another day, I discovered the pulleys are indeed 2.4:1 so I’ve been playing with the field % all day. Settled at 85% and 102c max temp. While it still gets to 102c, I’m constantly putting out 80-90amps, vs running field at 100%, which then makes the Wakespeed flux between 80-65amps as the manager dials field down. 60-70% field dials it down to 65 amps output almost constantly, so that’s not good either. 85% seems to keep it at 80-90amps.

Running it at 1500 rpm’s is supposed to get me 90amps cold and it definitely doesn’t do that. It does exactly half.

Still a joke of output and temp for a 170amp alternator in a large engine room that’s about 10 degrees warmer after a hour than outside. It’s something I can practically stand in.

I’m going to check out getting airflow inside (the ducts are already run amazingly), just want to get a fan on it, as well getting a new alternator, and putting the diodes outside the case, aka, diode bridge, as this shoud do 90 amps at 1500 rpm’s cold. I think it used to, but it’s probably burned out.


Steve

[sailorboy1]

There was a Nigel Calder article years ago that might be worth searching for