Balmar alternators or standard?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Sailmon

Hey Dale, Sailmon here (F 38 Her Diamond). We are refitting for retirement cruising - just bought a 100 amp Balmar Kit including smart regulator from PKYS for $885 US - out the door and delivered. What Is the new boat? Are you leaving Freedom behind?
Bob

Hi Bob, yes Freeform is sold , a 7 year awesome chapter closed. I'll send you a pm.

Cheers Dale.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[a64pilot]

You guys that think you can get up to 200 amps continuously out of a small frame alternator, install a dedicated ammeter to monitor your alternator output. I think you may be surprised.
It's not that expensive, is easy to do, and will tell you what your alternator is really putting out.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by daletournier

So, getting back to the dumb alternator, does being dumb result in less chance of cooking alternator thus greater reliability? at no cost to battery life as other charging methods take care of 90% of charging? ie. Solar (mppt) and honda generator through smart charger.
Thoughts?

No, it's not the regulator that is the issue with the Hitachi alternators. That was the whole point of my posting Maine Sail's article.

Of course, if your other charging sources can replenish the bank, then that reduces dependency on the alternator to provide that current.

A dumb regulator just is set to a preset voltage.

[01kiwijohn]

Had a similar decision to make, but the Balmars are painted ( not the best for heat dissipation) and pretty expensive.
Here's what I did.
went online to DB Electrical and bought their Yanmar mount, 80A single drive belt alternator for about $90.
Bought a Sterling remote mount regulator and wired in directly to the brush, as per their instruction.
I have a 400 Ah bank and this set up has served me well for between 4 to 6 months cruising in each of the past four years.
What you do need to do though, is replace the standard Hitachi output wire to a heavier gauge, so that it won't overheat under extended charging loads, imposed by the regulator. I used #8, which is overkill, but the wire temp never gets above about 11 degrees F. ( previous to the wire upgrade, it actually melted the insulation off the first inch of the wire coming off the alternator)
I've done a couple of these conversions now, so if you don't have a lot of dough, and want to go this route, let me know and I'll elaborate.

[jbinbi]

John, would be great to have more details

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[EmeraldCoastSailor]

KiwiJohn,
I'd like more info as well. For example, was the alternator you purchased similar in specs to what is original equipment leaving the real magic to the remote regulator? Or was the 80 amp alternator an upgrade from a 55 or 60 amp alternator?

[John Holbrook]

I hear you but I hope Balmar AT series do what they say. They have a chart showing the 200 amp version putting out 230amp cold and 190amps at 90 degrees C.

http://www.balmar.net/?page_id=15141

Apparently it the hairpin wound stator that makes these alternators more efficient 70% vs say 60% (so I guess that means less heat). I think the hairpin thing was patented by Delco so these many be of Delco origin.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You guys that think you can get up to 200 amps continuously out of a small frame alternator, install a dedicated ammeter to monitor your alternator output. I think you may be surprised.
It's not that expensive, is easy to do, and will tell you what your alternator is really putting out.

[DeepFrz]

01kiwijohn, what is the temp of your alternator during a hard charge?

On another recent thread the OP was able to increase his alternator output dramatically by mounting a fan to blow cooling air directly at the alternator.

edit: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-170708.html

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

I hear you but I hope Balmar AT series do what they say. They have a chart showing the 200 amp version putting out 230amp cold and 190amps at 90 degrees C.

Alternator Output Curves | Balmar

Apparently it the hairpin wound stator that makes these alternators more efficient 70% vs say 60% (so I guess that means less heat). I think the hairpin thing was patented by Delco so these many be of Delco origin.

Those tests are short duration and at 190F which is quite unrealistic in an engine bay. Driven hard your likely looking at 230-245F operating temps and it won't do this indefinitely so you'll need temp comp and belt manager. LiFePO4 charging has proven most manufacturer alternator claims to be misleading at best.

Yes the AT series is a great small case alt, is slightly more efficient & develops less heat, but it is still a small case alt and can still be burned up if not set up correctly for long bulk duration's.

On my own vessel I removed the rectification from the small case alt (now externally rectified) and that made a huge difference. The ultimate small case alt would be an AT with external rectification but at this point I don't think Balmar has any plans for that.

The AT series is based on Denso technology.

[John Holbrook]

Thanks for your input Maine Sail. I don't have first hand experience.
There is a bit of info 3/4 of the way down the page here and they like the AT series alternators.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats

If you have a battery bank that can accept 500amps an hour it seems using an alternator(s) driven off the main engine is the way to go.

A 10kva genset with 3 Victron inverter chargers would only get you 360 amps an hour and cost 25k. Two Balmar AT200s or a single large frame alternator would get you close to that and cost 3k?

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Those tests are short duration and at 190F which is quite unrealistic in an engine bay. Driven hard your likely looking at 230-245F operating temps and it won't do this indefinitely so you'll need temp comp and belt manager. LiFePO4 charging has proven most manufacturer alternator claims to be misleading at best.

Yes the AT series is a great small case alt, is slightly more efficient & develops less heat, but it is still a small case alt and can still be burned up if not set up correctly for long bulk duration's.

On my own vessel I removed the rectification from the small case alt (now externally rectified) and that made a huge difference. The ultimate small case alt would be an AT with external rectification but at this point I don't think Balmar has any plans for that.

The AT series is based on Denso technology.

[txg]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

On another recent thread the OP was able to increase his alternator output dramatically by mounting a fan to blow cooling air directly at the alternator.

edit: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-170708.html

Yes, this was me. From 135 deg C and increasing (test stopped) to max. 85 deg C with a stock 110A alt running at about 90A. Simply by having a cheap (27 bucks, 3A) fan blowing air on it, even without an external intake so we're talking about warm engine bay air.

Maine Sail, did you ever experiment with something like that? To me this seems like a much easier solution than expensive large frame-alternators or external rectification.

[Pizzazz]

The standard alternator is OK for most casual cruisers. How much electricity does the typical boat use in a day? I would say 100-120AH. It takes 1.5 hours to generate this amount with an 80 amp alternator and then the amps go down anyway. The engine compartment does not heat up that much in such a short period of time. Usually the first half hour is spent getting out of the marina or anchorage at low rpm's and then it is just an hour at close to max rpm's.

For sure, having a three stage externally regulated, heavy duty alternator is better, especially if you want to go through the absorption charging cycle (high voltage and decreasing current). But is it worth the expense for most casual sailors? I find it difficult to justify the cost (I do have three stage regulation but that is only because I got the regulator for free). Even if you consumer more power per day you can time your loads (a watermaker for example) to run with the engine.

Alternatives to three stage regulation include an extra cooling fan as stated, just opening up the engine compartment for an hour or even stopping the engine for a couple of hours then starting again to go through the absorption stage (if you want to do that, see the other post on partial charging).

[chouliha]

We have a standard 80 amp Hitachi alternator on our Yanmar converted to an external 3 stage Ballard smart regulator. We have been pleased with this setup for the past 5 years. Battery bank 460 amps. Previous to the Yanmar we used a balmar alternator with the same regulator we are using now.

Would i like to have a high output heavy duty alternator .... of course. But it would cost a few boat bucks to get it in hand and installed.

Is this the best option...... for us it works just fine and being in the tropics have not noticed any major overheating. We did change out the small output wire to a heavier #2 wire. We do have the temp wire connected.

My point to the post is even though our setup is not ideal it works.

Safe sailing

Chuck
Jacaranda
Tahiti

[DeepFrz]

I have experienced a cruising situation similar to Bill's but with a smaller battery bank. It was a complete drag on time and effort. I would not want to go cruising without a proper cruising electrical system. The standard alternators on small diesel engines are meant to keep a start battery charged, not to charge a deep cycle house battery bank. One may be able to get by but I bet you will be spending a lot of time and thought on the electrical system. Not to mention money on murdered batteries.

[Bleemus]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

Thanks for your input Maine Sail. I don't have first hand experience.
There is a bit of info 3/4 of the way down the page here and they like the AT series alternators.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats

You do realize that this is Maine Sails website right?