Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Exile

Are you saying that the original SG's SoC readings are not affected while charging batteries or using amps?....

I don't think you understand how the SG works. It's not just a voltmeter that needs to rest with no load before it will work.

In independent testing Smartgauge was found to be within 5% accuracy at all times. - Balmar SG Manual

During charging, SmartGauge only shows the calculated charge status as does an amp hours counter however SmartGauge, because it operates on a different principle, calculates a charge status that is much more accurate. - from the original Merlin manual!

People who are having trouble need to give it time to settle and learn. Listen to Balmar!

It will take much longer to learn with new batteries as they may take as many as 50 cycles to achieve their published capacity value.

I'm a fan of the original Smartgauge because it has worked for me for 10 years and I still have a shunt based BM for comparison - and to read amps. The SG-200 seems to be working for Maine Sail as well!!!!!

[lateral]

Originally Posted by newhaul

then fuggedaboutit don't sweat the small stuff go enjoy a beer and sunset .

✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔✔

[Exile]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

I don't think you understand how the SG works. It's not just a voltmeter that needs to rest with no load before it will work.

You sure about that?

In independent testing Smartgauge was found to be within 5% accuracy at all times. - Balmar SG Manual

During charging, SmartGauge only shows the calculated charge status as does an amp hours counter however SmartGauge, because it operates on a different principle, calculates a charge status that is much more accurate. - from the original Merlin manual!

We can all read manuals. The usefulness of these threads are when users report independently about their actual experiences & impressions of various products.

People who are having trouble need to give it time to settle and learn. Listen to Balmar!

It will take much longer to learn with new batteries as they may take as many as 50 cycles to achieve their published capacity value.

I'm a fan of the original Smartgauge because it has worked for me for 10 years and I still have a shunt based BM for comparison - and to read amps. The SG-200 seems to be working for Maine Sail as well!!!!!

According to many around here, the performance of the original SG didn't always live up to advertised expectations. Perhaps you missed at least one quite lengthy thread on the subject. Even so, people who have owned it generally claimed it was useful, but only in conjunction with a traditional amp counter. I understand that it is not simply a voltmeter, but from the many reports I've read it doesn't seem to offer that much more, and so may not be worth the price of admission. The SG-200 looks more promising, but in my opinion only when the promised Bluetooth adapter becomes available for updates, and only when Balmar can demonstrate it can help its customers overcome the problems that are being reported. In my experience there are just too many marine products that fail to deliver. I think I'll wait.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Sorry for your troubles then, but if that's the case why would you invest in a product that is so unproven?

Just out of alpha testing, only a handful of actual user reports? Sounds like volunteering to beta test, which IMO stage will last for years.

I suppose the odds would be better if you bought a bank based on what's been shown to be well matched.

One good function of this thread would be to compile a list of such battery models.

The most enthusiastic part of MS' report was I believe based on his CALB LFP, and I think most quality LFP would exhibit very similar characteristics, even Winston's Yttrium doping does not seem to change things much.

But the many different types of lead banks exhibit wildly different behaviours, so I would think will take a very long time to learn which ones are well tracked by any new BM, and give Balmar time to iterate their firmware.

Which will require the BT module to take advantage of.

This is one post which I find utterly incomprehensible, start to finish.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes, when you have time.

But without precise CC load gear, if it does not agree, that test is IMO not really a reliable indication of the SG-200 SoH inaccuracy.

If it does agree though, a valuable confirmation.

So if the results of a load capacity test do not agree with the SG-200, the test is not reliable. But if the same test agrees, then we have confirmation that the SG-200 is reliable.

I think you're also confusing SoH with SoC again.

These threads sometimes prove themselves a mixed blessing for people simply trying to learn.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Exile

So if the results of a load capacity test do not agree with the SG-200, the test is not reliable. But if the same test agrees, then we have confirmation that the SG-200 is reliable.

I think you're also confusing SoH with SoC again.

Yes, a properly conducted capacity load test is how SoH is reliably measured.

If a rougher one is conducted, it may not be as certainly accurate,

but if the meter agrees with its result, then yes obviously the odds are darn high that they're both right.

However if their results are far apart, then you'd want to go back and do the load test more accurately, wouldn't you?

None of this has to do with SoC.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Exile

This is one post which I find utterly incomprehensible, start to finish.

Well I'm happy to clarify any specific terms or statements you'd care to ask about.

I assume you don't want me to parse through the whole thing and rephrase every bit of it?

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend :
I don't think you understand how the SG works. It's not just a voltmeter that needs to rest with no load before it will work.

Originally Posted by Exile

...You sure about that?

I think you need to go back and read this - and other threads again. Nobody 'knows' exactly how but works but it has proved itself to the many Service and Military clients who have used it.

My post #54 shows you that it can measure current just by measuring voltage over 1000 times per second and using complex mathematics it 'calculates' SoC and learns about the battery and that makes its SoC calculations more accurate.

SOC(t) = F(t) = A + B.V(t) + C.dV(t)/dt + D.d2V(t)/dt2 + etc., where A, B, C, D, etc are constants. This is just math, where F is a gnarly function, and A+B etc are constants some of which we believe SG measures by putting little shorts on the battery or injecting AC pulses and measuring impedance or other such 'stuff'.

Smartgauge we know has 480 constants so it's then a relatively simple task for a computer to take a time series of V(t), fit it to the equation and obtain the constants. Put in plain English, you can accurately calculate the SOC at time t, if you know the *history* of V.

If the SG-200 performs as well as the Merlin SG I 'know' the SG-200 will be a game changer to tell us how much longer our batteries may last. In 2012 I thought my 7 year old Lifeline AGMs were getting old - but they lasted another 7 years. A State of Health monitor would have been a great tool then.

Let's not ruin this thread by posting incorrect facts and "I think......" comments. It is long enough and confusing enough already.

[rgleason]

To make things clearer, this thread is titled Balmar SG-200. The SmartGauge is another earlier but capable device by Merlin.

[Peeew]

I can add one more data point. I installed an SG200 a few weeks ago. It took me about two hours to install it. All I had to add was a few screws and one new cable that cost me about $20 US. All I had previously was a very simple and nearly useless original (Jeanneau) meter that showed voltage and current draw from the distribution panel. I found the installation instructions easy to follow.
So far I believe that it is still learning (so am I) but the information is very useful. I am looking forward to the release of the Bluetooth add on. Time will tell if this gives me all the information I need.

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by rgleason

To make things clearer, this thread is titled Balmar SG-200...

Thanks - and just to make things even clearer, the SmartGauge part of the SG-200 should work - we hope - exactly the same as the original Merlin SG since Balmar have been marketing that as the Balmar Smartgauge.

The SG code in the BALMAR SG-200 is all new code written by Balmar so may work better - or a lot worse. The Shunt part is and will continue to cause problems with installations. That cannot be stressed enough - especially by Balmar in their manual.

The only person to rely on for the test results of the SG-200 is Maine Sail, but users feedback is what this thread should be about.

[Kenomac]

By the tme most of you complete your install and figure it out, you’ll be into it for more than the cost of a proven product like the ones from Mastervolt.

I truly don’t understand the attraction to an unproven, troublesome voltmeter. Is it the internal voodoo it’s supposed to have that attracts so many?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

By the tme most of you complete your install and figure it out, you’ll be into it for more than the cost of a proven product like the ones from Mastervolt.

I truly don’t understand the attraction to an unproven, troublesome voltmeter. Is it the internal voodoo it’s supposed to have that attracts so many?

new gadget to oogle over ?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

Thanks - and just to make things even clearer, the SmartGauge part of the SG-200 should work - we hope - exactly the same as the original Merlin SG since Balmar have been marketing that as the Balmar Smartgauge.



The SG code in the BALMAR SG-200 is all new code written by Balmar so may work better - or a lot worse.

I think use of that sort of terminology would be misleading.

Chris has stated "Active Impedance Compensation" is Balmar's label for the technology shared in common between their SG-200 and Gibbo's / Merlin SmartGauge.

Their agreement is simply to sell and support the relabeled Merlin SG, they did not have access to its proprietary algorithms and wrote everything themselves from scratch.

As you say their implementation may (or may not) prove to be as good as or better.


> The only person to rely on for the test results of the SG-200 is Maine Sail

There may well emerge others as qualified willing to spend time doing rigorous testing. For example Bruce @OceanPlanet had started doing so for a collection of leading BMs against Merlin SmartGauge, long before the SG-200 was released.

Even a moderately technical user can do a head - to - head accuracy comparison, but of course the conclusion would just be one datapoint for that particular battery model and bank type.

As Chris points out, the resources required to verify / tweak the Active Impedance Compensation algorithms to cover more and more batteries accurately is a huge investment, and

if it is indeed the case that it works well for only a limited set of models / types, then the firmware updates will be critical to its future success.

[two-rocks]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

By the tme most of you complete your install and figure it out, you’ll be into it for more than the cost of a proven product like the ones from Mastervolt.

I truly don’t understand the attraction to an unproven, troublesome voltmeter. Is it the internal voodoo it’s supposed to have that attracts so many?

Mine was a very simple install. Been a month, with maybe 4-6 deeper cycles. Last night with lights, fridge, 3-showers, stereo, cooking dinner and the propane heater running for several hours. Showed 88% this am, although the solar had already started kicking in. My battery SOH of 91% seems to correspond.

No need to figure out algorithms, how it’s coded, etc. I also don’t care to know my diesel fuel down to the ounce, which seems people want this to do for the battery. Mine works as advertised, and seems very accurate.