Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

[JmanC]

Ok can someone tell me if a typical lifepo4 dropin will work with this monitor? There are a good handful of lifepo4 deep cycle poping up outside of NA. They are all the same chemistry right?

They all seem to use the same brand of Chinese prismatic cells. What i want to know is, if balmar haven't tested a particular brand of dropin, will it still work?

Im looking at victron, enerdrive, fusion brands etc.

[JmanC]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

By the tme most of you complete your install and figure it out, you’ll be into it for more than the cost of a proven product like the ones from Mastervolt.

I truly don’t understand the attraction to an unproven, troublesome voltmeter. Is it the internal voodoo it’s supposed to have that attracts so many?

I got no problem going back to basics (rising voltage, falling current). This gauge has been an absolute nightmare and spent weeks trying to get it to work but nothing. That time wasted alone completely outweighs any convenience the soc reading has.
My attraction was simply to avoid going to deep with lifepo4. But for lead i can get by more easily with no monitor. If this thing turns out to be a flop for me, its in the trash can, as life is to short for this nonsense.

[witzgall]

We have tested successfully the SG200 with a number of drop-ins, including Lithionics, Dragonfly and Relion. If the construction of those are similar to a target battery, in the quality of cells, construction etc, I don't see why it would not work.

We did have an early customer that had a friend build a LIFEPO4 battery for him, fully integrated with a BMS embedded into the system, that did not work well. In that case, the BMS was an inexpensive board purchased from eBay. Cells were sourced from Alibaba I think. We did not get further that that with the testing, as he was unwilling to dismantle the system.

As to the "Same Chemistry, right" I would not make any such assumption. In my opinion, there is a wild-west component to some of the Lithium drop in market. There are a number of reputable, reliable manufacturers out there, making quality products. There are also a number of unknown manufacturers that are looking to make a quick buck. The price will be the most obvious indicator for the buying public, but even then, who knows? If I was buying a drop in solution, where I could not see the cells, circuitry, etc, I would stick with a known brand.

Chris

Originally Posted by JmanC

Ok can someone tell me if a typical lifepo4 dropin will work with this monitor? There are a good handful of lifepo4 deep cycle poping up outside of NA. They are all the same chemistry right?

They all seem to use the same brand of Chinese prismatic cells. What i want to know is, if balmar haven't tested a particular brand of dropin, will it still work?

Im looking at victron, enerdrive, fusion brands etc.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by JmanC

They all seem to use the same brand of Chinese prismatic cells.

That is very contrary to my experience.

Best also to call those "pouch cells", as opposed to those prismatic cells encased in hard plastic or metal, with terminals easy to access already provided, as with Winston, CALB, Sinopoly and GBS.

> Ok can someone tell me if a typical lifepo4 dropin will work with this monitor?

There is no such thing, especially the brands you mention have little in common with the cheaper Chinese ones, and I suspect not with each other either.

K2 being Trillium's OEM would I imagine make them very similar but not necessarily the same.


> They are all the same chemistry right?

Yes, and if the BM has direct access to the cell terminals I'm confident you would see similar performance / behaviour among those top quality cells where the makers are diligent about chemical consistency and purity.

But when the BMS' components stand between the BM and the cells, there will likely be major variability.

I don't know to what extent Balmar's version of the Active Impedance Compensation technology is important when used with LFP banks, as opposed to lead.

If it's the coulomb-counting side doing the heavy lifting, that mechanism should be pretty consistent from one brand to the other.

But of course, the self-consumption of power by the BMS itself can't be counted from "the outside", and I've seen that vary a lot.

Note that many BMS have their own Ah counting SoC functionality, and one would think would be set up to count their own power consumed.

[witzgall]

A small clarification: Active Impedance Compensation only applies to the SG200.

Chris

Originally Posted by john61ct

Chris has stated "Active Impedance Compensation" is Balmar's label for the technology shared in common between their SG-200 and Gibbo's / Merlin SmartGauge.

Their agreement is simply to sell and support the relabeled Merlin SG, they did not have access to its proprietary algorithms and wrote everything themselves from scratch.

[JmanC]

Thanks john61ct.

Ok some more questions for Chris please.
I brought a 125AH LiFePO4 dropin just to get to know lithium better.

But what capacity should I enter in the SG200? Sticker labelled 125AH? or the real capacity which according to phone app is 134AH, and my capacity test at C/20 shows there is more AH than the labelled 125AH.

Also are Balmar going to include a AH counting feature?
cheers

[witzgall]

If you are confident of your capacity test results, use that number. Otherwise, use the MFG stated value.

Who makes the battery?

Chris

PS- Lots of interesting ideas we are mulling over as improvements.

Originally Posted by JmanC

Thanks john61ct.

Ok some more questions for Chris please.
I brought a 125AH LiFePO4 dropin just to get to know lithium better.

But what capacity should I enter in the SG200? Sticker labelled 125AH? or the real capacity which according to phone app is 134AH, and my capacity test at C/20 shows there is more AH than the labelled 125AH.

Also are Balmar going to include a AH counting feature?
cheers

[CGirvan]

Originally Posted by witzgall

PS- Lots of interesting ideas we are mulling over as improvements.

Will these improvements be available to existing purchasers via a firmware upgrade?

[JmanC]

Originally Posted by witzgall

If you are confident of your capacity test results, use that number. Otherwise, use the MFG stated value.

Who makes the battery?

Chris

PS- Lots of interesting ideas we are mulling over as improvements.

enerdrive. B-tec 125AH.

[ayates]

Originally Posted by witzgall

PS- Lots of interesting ideas we are mulling over as improvements.

Existing features I like:

• Bright very readable display.
• Secondary display capability. I have one display in the engine room, and plan to place a second display in the deck house.
• Nice simple main screen. One big number people that people can focus on is the key.
• Accuracy (I assume).
• State-of-health. This will be extremely interesting to see.

Features I wish it had:

• Logging capability. I have a requirement to log electrical system performance/usage over a two month period each year. I then review and make changes/enhancements for the next season. This could be the discussed NMEA gateway, as there are NMEA loggers available.
• Programmable relay outputs. Ideally I would like two outputs: one that says batteries need charging, and one that says charging is complete (i.e. the generator can be turned off). These would tie into simple LEDs that the crew can follow.

Allan.

[Kenomac]

I don’t know why I subscribed to this thread, but the device seems very problematic compared to other time proven devices which already do what the Balmar sg200 device is trying to do for the same price point. Why are all of you such willing Guinea pigs? That’s what I don’t understand.

I did purchase and use the Balmar smart gauge for an entire season with disappointing results. Lots of hype and promises, but found it to be nothing more than a voltmeter with a cult-like following.

[lateral]

Excuse me but I have been posting my experience with this device
on SG200/raritan
thinking it was this thread. Apologies. Duh!


Initially my SG quickly came up with 90% SOH.
After two months, maybe 4/5 cycles, it is showing ----- for SOH.
Installed EXACTLY as prescribed apart from tail current.
Anybody else had similar?

I'm still running 1%C tail current equals 100%.
I am suspicious that is the problem.
Out of the 4/5 cycles I've only hit it once.
Seems 100% is a line in the sand with FLA.
Where you are prepared to draw it.


Or// batteries are dying.

[john61ct]

Just guessing, but a total of 4 cycles over months, is just not enough for it to build up the data needed.

Especially only getting to Full one cycle.

Forget SoH for now.

What is your impression of its reliability / accuracy with SoC?

What is stopping you from doing a full cycle for testing purposes every day for say a month?

[sailah]

After being a dummy and resetting monitor, I'm now at 100% SoH and SoC is now learning. Last i was on the boat the alternator was putting in 10A, 75%SoC and it said i had 5 hours left to charge to 100%. This is with 230Ah golf carts and Balmar alternator.

Since im never at dock and no solar i don't know if I'll ever get there lol.

Speaking of solar i just bought an 80W flexible panel and Victron MPPT. I plan to install later this week as something i can deploy on aft deck and leave while at.mooring but store down in lax when not in use.

Im determined to get 100%!!!!!

[lateral]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Just guessing, but a total of 4 cycles over months, is just not enough for it to build up the data needed.

Especially only getting to Full one cycle.

Forget SoH for now.

What is your impression of its reliability / accuracy with SoC?

What is stopping you from doing a full cycle for testing purposes every day for say a month?

Pretty good. Last cycle hit 100% on recharge and 3-4weeks later (no load, didn't use boat) read 12.5V & 62%. Which means my batteries are losing 3x what they should
resting? Guess I have murdered them?

What do you reckon on those numbers?

I *will* do a controlled draw down at some point when I have time.