Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by lateral

I'm puzzled why Balmar gives a 2-4% recommended tail current as this is not 100%soc. No-one has offered up an explanation of this. If it is part of the soc calculation is I'm perplexed.

The default settings are there to be changed, set to whatever **you** think endAmps should be.

Different model batteries have different specs.

And with LFP different owners define their own "working cycling Full".

And some would want their SoC meter to show Full even if they were a few percent lower.

Some never ever get to Full, it's a judgment call.

[marty9876]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The default settings are there to be changed, set to whatever **you** think endAmps should be.

Different model batteries have different specs.

And with LFP different owners define their own "working cycling Full".

And some would want their SoC meter to show Full even if they were a few percent lower.

Some never ever get to Full, it's a judgment call.

Per manual, should only be changed when Charge Termination not being reached which I asusme Charge Termination = SOC 100%

Just saying per manual gospel.

NOTE: Each chemistry has default settings for the CHARGE values of
CHARGE V and TAPER CURR. In certain circumstances these values may
need to be changed when Charge Termination is not being reached. IN
ALL OTHER CASES DO NOT CHANGE THESE VALUES. Changing the
PEUKERT Value will not effect Charge Termination, only TIME REMAINING
Calculations

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes supporting Maine Sail is very worthwhile. I donate to his site maintenance fund regularly, button bottom of the page

https://marinehowto.com/about/

So why not buy products from him rather than the UK? If you're a tech or distributor, he might even have dealer pricing if the quantities make it worth his while.

But more on topic, it would be helpful -- especially to those of us who sometimes struggle to understand our boat's electrical systems -- if you could give us an inkling of your background & expertise. You post a lot giving advice which is generous of you, but I for one have trouble following many of your posts. The professional marine techs usually identify themselves as such in their avatars, as do others (in their posts) with techy backgrounds such as electrical engineers. As a layman, I often find this helpful when conflicting or confusing (to me) advice is sometimes provided.

[lateral]

[QUOTE=marty9876;2936756]Charge V and tail current seem to be the puzzles here.

Lowering the charge v (assuming under your charge profile set points) I would have thought would artificially inflate SOH but for me seemed to crash SOH (93% - 89% - 6%). Not what I would have thought.

Tail current in the 2-4% range would indicate a bank is only in the upper 90%'s charge but certainly not 100%.

I guess the magic is in the combination of all these. Interesting enough I read there is a great deal of double checks going on which one would think would modulate any errors or setup issues but with my results I'm not seeing that.

All this is speculation as it sounds like there are a few bugs in the code which introduces way too many unknown variables to make any educated


Yep my thinking too. As the relationship of SOC to TC is far from linear I think I’m going to have to coulomb count to get a handle on this.

[john61ct]

See the thing is, this device is not actually controlling the stop-charge point.

And only a very tiny minority of charge sources do so based on endAmps.

So of course in most setups, even trying to hold Absorb time long enough to avoid premature infloatulation is a non-trivial challenge.

The best we can shoot for, is getting to endAmps "most cycles", many owners with sealed lead banks settling for maybe once a week out of fear of overcharging.

Most "realists" are very happy if they just get to "close enough ", are not at all fussed about the longevity hit resulting from the gap between say 98.5% SoC and true 100% Full.

It seems likely to me this camp is in the majority, given all the guff I catch across many forums that my perfectionism is obsessive, my advice "unrealistic".

And then turning to LFP, many owners preferring to "avoid the shoulders" would indeed be happy to accept an Absorb / CV endAmps stop-charge goal of 0.03C or even 0.05C.

So, by default your SoC meter OOTB **shows** 100% a little bit earlier than only "obsessive perfectionists" think it should be.

Ideally your actual charge sources keep going a bit longer, most cycles.

Balmar had to pick **some** default, and they do let the user adjust it.

The average customer, maybe even 80% of just the subset that cares enough to pay for a SoC meter, has little clue of what this whole above discussion is about.

So, complaining about the default setpoint the design team selected?

When even chargers costing thousands are not set "correctly" out of the box?

Please. . .

[lateral]

"So, complaining about the default setpoint the design team selected?

When even chargers costing thousands are not set "correctly" out of the box?

Please. . ."

I don't need your sanctimony, John.
For someone who doesn't give personal numbers for their install, your cup floweth over.

They give a quantity range that is way off proper tail current to make people "feel good" (?) to optimize their fuzzy logic, and dont explain adequately wtf is going on with regard
how the thing works and then call it a "game changer".
Not yet anyways.

Not once has JW given an explanation as to why the recommended CV & TC are different to real world numbers.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by john61ct

See the thing is, this device is not actually controlling the stop-charge point.

And only a very tiny minority of charge sources do so based on endAmps.

So of course in most setups, even trying to hold Absorb time long enough to avoid premature infloatulation is a non-trivial challenge.

The best we can shoot for, is getting to endAmps "most cycles", many owners with sealed lead banks settling for maybe once a week out of fear of overcharging.

Most "realists" are very happy if they just get to "close enough ", are not at all fussed about the longevity hit resulting from the gap between say 98.5% SoC and true 100% Full.

It seems likely to me this camp is in the majority, given all the guff I catch across many forums that my perfectionism is obsessive, my advice "unrealistic".

And then turning to LFP, many owners preferring to "avoid the shoulders" would indeed be happy to accept an Absorb / CV endAmps stop-charge goal of 0.03C or even 0.05C.

So, by default your SoC meter OOTB **shows** 100% a little bit earlier than only "obsessive perfectionists" think it should be.

Ideally your actual charge sources keep going a bit longer, most cycles.

Balmar had to pick **some** default, and they do let the user adjust it.

The average customer, maybe even 80% of just the subset that cares enough to pay for a SoC meter, has little clue of what this whole above discussion is about.

So, complaining about the default setpoint the design team selected?

When even chargers costing thousands are not set "correctly" out of the box?

Please. . .

the best we can shoot for ? Question is what kind of response are you getting from your use of this gauge ? And what battery makeup is it monitoring ? Do any of your customers use this unit ? What is the feedback they are giving you about the unit?

I am trying to decide if my solar controller that has a built in ah counter in and out is sufficient or would I benefit from this gauge ? Or should I use the money to get another 100ah of Lfp bank. And just not worry about the batteries that much.

[john61ct]

Are you saying your SC is one of the few that coordinates with a shunt-at-the-bank BM?

That's the only way to get SoC, a regular SC just shows local coulombs

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by john61ct

>>>>>>>>>>>>




It seems likely to me this camp is in the majority, given all the guff I catch across many forums that my perfectionism is obsessive, my advice "unrealistic".>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't disagree with your default statements.


This statement makes no sense.


exile is right.

[lateral]

These peculiar CV & TC settings I'm
suspecting if you don't set them to the recommended 2-4%C the SOC will be skewed at mid SOC's compromising the learning process. So, going default, you may have to put up with an early 100% SOC (not accurate) and keep charging to your known tail current (0.1A/hr change or whatever), so as to optimize the accuracy of the mid 50% SOC #, where it is more important.
Accuracy tapering off at 0% & 100%. Obviously SOC has several adjusting inputs so this is just initially; how it effects the learning process is what i'm trying to establish.

Once the learning process has data to correlate, progressive factors can be applied to the extremities to make them more accurate?
As you can tell I'm no rocket scientist.

[CatNewBee]

Overheated discussion there.

The smart gauge is a gauge, it shows a value to please the eyes of the owner, for those who care about health it shows SOH, for those who care about getting to 100% charged it shows SOC... It is a monitoring device, it does NOT charge the battery nor does it some magic to the charging devices.

Does it make you a better Saylor? It may change your behavior at the short run, on the long run I doubt it you will take more care about your batteries.

Is it worth it? I would say yes, for everyone who likes nice amber gauges it is a must have.

Is it unique on the market? Yes, other gauges look old fashioned and are not amber / brownish, but can show the same values too, are sometimes even more versatile in regards of interoperability and functionality.

What is the SMART part then? Well first the marketing hype, the secret algorhythms and alleged self optimization by learning the battery, what means user settings, no matter how smart they are and thoroughly chosen, will be overridden to please the eyes with great SOC and SOH readings.

Would I buy it? Well, this is personal taste, I don't like amber gauges and smart stuff that develops an independent life out of control. Maybe I am too engineery and want to know what a value shown on a gauge really means. So it is not for me. But this is diversity, some people may find it useful and sleep better having it.

Match your expectations to the features provided and decide on your own.

[two-rocks]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Maybe I am too engineery and want to know what a value shown on a gauge really means. So it is not for me. But this is diversity, some people may find it useful and sleep better having it.

Match your expectations to the features provided and decide on your own.

As a real engineer still working, I appreciate the work someone else does. I want someone to engineer a product so I can relax from engineering and enjoy the view and wind.

Just plugged my car in the other day to look at the 700+ sensors for debugging a problem. I don't look into the fueling tables and want to know all the details, I leave that to the engineers.

I wanted this meter to do the same for the batteries. My boat is an escape, not a source of engineering challenge, even though the battery monitoring is easy stuff.

Now explain that easy stuff to my non-engineer wife. She'll "let" me hand steer, use candles, and paper charts, and ice blocks about the time I start talking about tail current. I was hoping not to do that.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by two-rocks

...My boat is an escape, not a source of engineering challenge, even though the battery monitoring is easy stuff.

Now explain that easy stuff to my non-engineer wife. She'll "let" me hand steer, use candles, and paper charts, and ice blocks about the time I start talking about tail current. I was hoping not to do that.

Yes, I understand this. I prefer a gauge that tells me the reality and lets me decide on the consequences instead of showing something. I want to know how many Ah I can use, not if it is 100% of the remaining capacity, and I consider SOH totally BS, because I decide finally if I want to keep the battery or need to replace it, because I consider it weared and teared and no longer fit for my purpose.

So any smart thing just hides the reality by adapting to detorration. It is the wrong instrument for me, but someone else may like it.

[rgleason]

Catnewbee I can respect and appreciate this point of view. I am hoping that a very effective wifi/bluetooth app will complete the picture for me and will include a historical graph of all the important values.


I think of sophisticated residential energy monitoring devices which can, by sensing just a few wires, determine what the refrigerator load is and when it cycles, when the ac cycles and what the load tends to be, when lights are turned on and off and what that base load is, and so on. I am now wondering why the same could not be done for a boat, and that load data could be used too help determine when the batteries are nearing full charge.
But maybe that is trying to get too smart?

So any smart thing just hides the reality by adapting to deterioration. It is the wrong instrument for me, but someone else may like it.

[two-rocks]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Yes, I understand this. I prefer a gauge that tells me the reality and lets me decide on the consequences instead of showing something. I want to know how many Ah I can use, not if it is 100% of the remaining capacity, and I consider SOH totally BS, because I decide finally if I want to keep the battery or need to replace it, because I consider it weared and teared and no longer fit for my purpose.

So any smart thing just hides the reality by adapting to detorration. It is the wrong instrument for me, but someone else may like it.

I get counting as well, but not for me.

As an analogy, we used to own a powerboat with the integrated fuel and engine systems on the network. You could look at gallons and count away. What I preferred was to watch range. The range would change based on speed and where we were headed, fuel up plans, weather, etc.

State of health helps with the battery calculation, I would think. Are you not calculating the health of your batteries in determining your need to replace?

However, it seems that the counting coulombs would be a simple add to the system. With an engine we knew range and averages for trip planning. If I needed to bake a turkey (in an electric galley) I might want to know my ability to do so prior to starting.

But wait, if your turkey takes 4% to cook based on the last time you made one, can't you just look and cook?