Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Catnewbee I can respect and appreciate this point of view. I am hoping that a very effective wifi/bluetooth app will complete the picture for me and will include a historical graph of all the important values.


I think of sophisticated residential energy monitoring devices which can, by sensing just a few wires, determine what the refrigerator load is and when it cycles, when the ac cycles and what the load tends to be, when lights are turned on and off and what that base load is, and so on. I am now wondering why the same could not be done for a boat, and that load data could be used too help determine when the batteries are nearing full charge.
But maybe that is trying to get too smart?

than https://www.simarine.net/ maybe for you. also a proprietary system, but with all the bells and whistles, multiple shunts for each path, so you can monitor and aggregate all sources and loads independently plus having weather data, tank gauges and bluetooth.

[john61ct]

If you are talking about the Balmar SG-200, the topic of this thread

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

The smart gauge is a gauge

That is a very confusing name to use, makes people think you are referring to the traditional Gibbo / Merlin device.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by two-rocks

I get counting as well, but not for me.

As an analogy, we used to own a powerboat with the integrated fuel and engine systems on the network. You could look at gallons and count away. What I preferred was to watch range. The range would change based on speed and where we were headed, fuel up plans, weather, etc.

State of health helps with the battery calculation, I would think. Are you not calculating the health of your batteries in determining your need to replace?

However, it seems that the counting coulombs would be a simple add to the system. With an engine we knew range and averages for trip planning. If I needed to bake a turkey (in an electric galley) I might want to know my ability to do so prior to starting.

But wait, if your turkey takes 4% to cook based on the last time you made one, can't you just look and cook?

That is what I am saying. A normal battery monitor can do this. No need to learn the battery, or do permanent magic, just set it up in the menu, and forget it. If it does not perform as it should, replace it or change the settings.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by john61ct

If you are talking about the Balmar SG-200, the topic of this thread

That is a very confusing name to use, makes people think you are referring to the traditional Gibbo / Merlin device.

quoting the entire post by catnewbee would dispelling the confusion. It is readily apparent he is in fact referencing the SG-200 battery monitor .

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

than https://www.simarine.net/ maybe for you. also a proprietary system, but with all the bells and whistles, multiple shunts for each path, so you can monitor and aggregate all sources and loads independently plus having weather data, tank gauges and bluetooth.

Problem is, for this specific function, giving %SoC, it simply is not only "not very accurate" which applies to even the most accurate devices,

but it is less accurate than most of them.

Great for consolidating voltage and Ah in/out from multiple banks, with tank levels etc

but not for its SoC reading

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by john61ct

If you are talking about the Balmar SG-200, the topic of this thread

That is a very confusing name to use, makes people think you are referring to the traditional Gibbo / Merlin device.

It was about the SG200, but my verdict also applies somehow to the old SG too. If there is no explanation what exactly is taken into account and how it works to cast a SOC and SOH and outsmart the user settings, as user you end up either as a believer or a sceptic. I tend to be the second.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Problem is, for this specific function, giving %SoC, it simply is not only "not very accurate" which applies to even the most accurate devices,

but it is less accurate than most of them.

Great for consolidating voltage and Ah in/out from multiple banks, with tank levels etc

but not for its SoC reading

what is the information you have gotten that leads believing the SOC reading may not be accurate?

[two-rocks]

Interesting. On my phone I can see the percentage remaining and the battery health.

How is this magic achieved? Is it enough?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Problem is, for this specific function, giving %SoC, it simply is not only "not very accurate" which applies to even the most accurate devices,

but it is less accurate than most of them.

Great for consolidating voltage and Ah in/out from multiple banks, with tank levels etc

but not for its SoC reading

I'd like more information about your evaluation as well John. It also claims to use algorithms & shunts to determine battery health, and comes with an app for remote monitoring (and maybe other functions). I just had a friend with my same model of boat install one (himself) along with a lot of solar and he's quite satisfied. He's not a marine tech or one with an overly techy background, but a long-time boat owner and quite knowledgeable about boat systems. If you've heard or personally experienced problems with the Simarine Pico monitors, you should post about it for the potential benefit of all. Nobody wants to get stuck with significant money outlays for products that don't live up to their advertising.

[john61ct]

The details as to **how** a SoC meter arrives at its guesstimate are not of great concern to me. I'm happy to let it be a Black Box, the proof is in the pudding.

Yes, it is very tedious to compare a gauge's readout to actual SoC determined by the more accurate measurement methods, but to me that is both necessary and sufficient to decide if a given meter works well or not.

Professionals whose judgment I respect have done this systematically, but for whatever (likely economic) reasons have declined to publish comprehensive details. If you are monitoring their postings across their blogs and multiple forums, it is pretty easy to read between the lines and draw your own conclusions.

Of course, such rigorous testing can be done by any of us willing to do so, and

you could then choose to publish an account of your process and conclusions, or not, up to you of course. But those results would only apply to **that** meter's accuracy with **that** specific bank.

Or you just make a general comment, fair or unfair and let other members decide for themselves whether to take it into account in their decisions.

And many (if not most) prospects seem to be more willing to settle for "ballpark is good enough", to the point of being happy just using voltage.

To me, any SoC meter is better than that.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Professionals whose judgment I respect have done this systematically, but for whatever (likely economic) reasons have declined to publish comprehensive details. If you are monitoring their postings across their blogs and multiple forums, it is pretty easy to read between the lines and draw your own conclusions.

please for those of that don't have the time to search the internet for the conclusions of these professionals you reference .

Could you please state some of the specifics as to why they don't feel that this unit is " up to snuff"

Or at a minimum could you please link to a few of their blogs or forum posts.

[lateral]

"To me, any SoC meter is better than that."

NOT correct, as stated, mine set to real world 100% soc vs TC
gives me 12.7v & 72% rested. (SG 1250) Actual real numbers.
Why would I lie?
So, my voltmeter & tables are better than the SG200 in this instance.
If you go by the SG200 voltage which was 0.06V higher than my fluke & Uni-T.
Not so bad relative to the DMM's, but still wonky as.

If you don't know how it works how are you supposed to calibrate it to your specifics?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Or you just make a general comment, fair or unfair and let other members decide for themselves whether to take it into account in their decisions.

You just made a general comment, fair or unfair we don't yet know, about the Simarine monitor, but left readers wondering what the reason for it was. Simarine, Mastervolt, Victron, the original SG, the SG-200 -- all high quality monitors from reputable cos. afaik. I for one, and probably like most, have no personal bias for or against any of them, and would simply like to make the most reasoned choice I can based on the usual factors of accuracy, reliability, cost, and ease of installation & use, etc.

And many (if not most) prospects seem to be more willing to settle for "ballpark is good enough", to the point of being happy just using voltage.

In the cruising context, "ballpark" is in fact often "good enough" for most, provided some basic rules are followed by users. And I'd say that, at least for "many (if not most) prospects" following along here, they understand enough to use a combo of reading voltage and amps to determine when it's time to begin or end the recharging process.

To me, any SoC meter is better than that.

Confusion here about what you mean by a "SoC meter." The actual "black boxes" (e.g. SG-200) we're discussing, or the typical hand-held meters most of us use on our boats? I'm not aware of any of the latter that reliably determine SoC directly, short of a dedicated (and cumbersome) capacity tester. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Originally Posted by lateral

"To me, any SoC meter is better than that."

NOT correct, as stated, mine set to real world 100% soc vs TC
gives me 12.7v & 72% rested. (SG 1250) Actual real numbers.
Why would I lie?
So, my voltmeter & tables are better than the SG200 in this instance.
If you go by the SG200 voltage which was 0.06V higher than my fluke & Uni-T.
Not so bad relative to the DMM's, but still wonky as.

If you don't know how it works how are you supposed to calibrate it to your specifics?

I'm no technician, and have always used what I hope is a high-quality (Blue Seas) hand-held (V/A) clamp meter, but it has always lined up almost exactly with the analog voltage gauges on my main electrical panel, my Victron BMV voltage & ammeter readouts, and the remote monitor for my Xantrex charger (which also reads voltage & amps going in). My hand-held also seems to match up pretty well when I check the batteries directly, compensating for a bit of cable loss that is. So hopefully I'll have a leg up on using trailing amps to determine the accuracy of any add'l SoC monitor I may buy, along with the voltage tables published by Lifeline that is.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Exile

[COLOR="navy"]Confusion here about what you mean by a "SoC meter."

An SoC meter is a device that (attempts to) calculate and display SoC% based on more than fluctuating voltage level.

The Merlin SmartGauge was the first that did so without counting Ah / coulombs. Merlin did develop other ones since then, I believe targeted more at military / industry usage.

The Balmar SG-200 is the first, at least in the consumer / marine markets that combines coulomb-counting methodology with the Active Impedance Compensation tech.

All the rest do Ah-counting only, Victron BMV-712 and Xantrex Link Pro being leading examples.

There are inexpensive Ah counters that do not take into account Peukert coefficient, Charge Efficiency factor etc that could be made "portable" and used effectively at various circuit points for measuring loads usage, source contributions.

But just like a simple ammeter, voltage gauge or DMM, not IMO to be referred to as a SoC gauge.



Although perfectly adequate for helping determine 0% or 100%.

It is the ranges between the two where most of us who care require the greater sophistication.

[john61ct]

wrt the simarine specifically, maybe those with an interest can find some starting points here

https://www.google.com/search?q=site...R+simarine+SoC

and by adapting the string with the other sailing forums.

I have not kept more detailed reference notes for you on a device I'm not interested in, and prefer to not directly point you to people that no longer want to publicly comment on it...