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Old 08-08-2019, 02:25   #31
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
What is the deciding factor in your decosion to go with Full River, rather than Lifeline, Northstar or Odyssey?
Hi John,

I only found that J185 size 12v in Trojan and Fullriver with Full river having slightly more Ah rating

That size works well in new location

I Assumed that they are all about the same level of quality but I have not researched the prices of the ones you suggested

I can buy 8 pieces directly from Fullriver Factory at $268 each and they ship direct to Subic, so that seemed easy.

I will look at the others you suggest to see if their cost is similar and in the size type I need

Sometimes I just assume rather than confirm [emoji20]
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:58   #32
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

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Nolex,
Are your Mastervolt gel batteries 2v or 6v?
They are 12v. Not my ideal choice, but I think they will deliver a reasonable life. If not, it was still a sensible decision in my particular case because of the additional cost and delay in the alternatives.

Gel batteries certainly have the reputation of being very sensitive to overcharging.

The gel batteries on my first yacht were installed before smart chargers were available. My solar array was manually regulated, with a switch or with turning on loads. There were no charge controllers (or at least none that were reasonably priced) in the very early days of solar.

With this type of manual regulation, mistakes and inattention certainly occurred. Over charging while not frequent was not uncommon either. After about 5-6 years more equipment became available and smart (or at least not totally dumb) charging was installed together with a good quality PWM solar controller (no MPPT availability in those days). The batteries lasted over 15 years!

This is only one data point, but I am skeptical that gel batteries are as sensitive to overcharging as their reputation suggests. Nevertheless, these day fully automatic multi stage charging is readily available and with a little care taken adjusting the setting correctly, the whole process should be automatic
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:59   #33
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

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A64, could not find a Gel Battery in that size that would fit the new location
Don’t forget some of the gel batteries, especially the 2v cells, can be installed horizontally which may help with your space problem.
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Old 08-08-2019, 04:30   #34
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post

I did read MainSail's article on "Deep Cycle" marketing and his disdain for 8D and 4D battery design which is a problem for me as I’m presently using under seat lockers with minimal height to take my 8 x 8D, thus my concern that heat is prematurely killing them on high charge cycles.

That article only pertains to flooded 4D and 8D batteries (not GEL or AGM) but also mentions that both Rolls and Dyno actually do manufacture a deep cycle flooded product in that form factor...
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Old 08-08-2019, 04:51   #35
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post

I did find a Group size J185 / 921 that takes advantage of the height in 2 Rows of 4

Both Trojan and Fullriver make them,probably others, but are they considered Deep Cycle?

I installed a bank of Full River J185's in an off-grid solar powered cabin in Northern Maine (Upper Richardson Lake). The batteries were installed with a Morningstar controller in the fall of 2008. They get abused every time the owner is there as the kids never turn anything off. On at least two occasions, when I've been up there bird hunting with the owner, I've witnessed the batteries as low as 11.2V. Like many of our marine customers he knows the voltage should not get that low, but does not really care, and just shrugs and says "We'll replace them when they die". There is a remote generator shed that we built, and an AC shore charger, but they rarely if ever use it.

Those Full River's are still plugging away and have outlasted a flooded L16 bank we did in another cabin, using the identical controller, and with similar usage patterns. For a Chinese AGM the Full River batteries were really a pretty decent value.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:45   #36
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

And certainly very readily available outside North America, the others I was suggesting often not so much, at reasonable pricing anyway.
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Old 12-08-2019, 14:06   #37
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

Do you have temperature sensors on your batteries? Do your charging systems take temperature into account? All lead-acid batteries need their charging systems (all of them: solar, alternator, shore) to take battery temperature into account for long life. We got 7 years out of our gels but an alternator malfunction (no temp sensor) destroyed them early.
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Old 12-08-2019, 15:43   #38
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I am on my 2nd set of AGM batteries.

8 x TROJAN 8D-AGM 12V 230Ah Series/Parallel = 920 AH @ 24v

They seem to only last 4 years


Batteries are not pets. They are consumable items that deteriorate with age and use. Periodic replacement is part of the cost of cruising. 4 years isn't terrible.



That said you could maybe expect a few more years out of them than you're getting.



High temperatures will shorten their life. As suggested upthread, if you can install a fan and get the temperature down, that will help a little. As noted upthread the temperature probe for your charger should be on the warmest battery otherwise the bank will overcharge slightly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I only found that J185 size 12v in Trojan and Fullriver with Full river having slightly more Ah rating

The J185 size is a nice shape for many locations. I had one once in a camper.


Usually the cycle life is lower on batteries with a higher Ah rating.
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Old 12-08-2019, 17:37   #39
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

Cycle life is often lower for batteries that have a higher **Ah per kg** of weight ratio. But not necessarily once you're talking about the top known-good quality vendors.

Which you should be for good longevity.

Trojan AGM are not in that group, for them yes, four years lifespan, EoL at 80% SoH, is a pretty good run.
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Old 13-08-2019, 02:54   #40
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
I installed a bank of Full River J185's in an off-grid solar powered cabin in Northern Maine (Upper Richardson Lake). The batteries were installed with a Morningstar controller in the fall of 2008. They get abused every time the owner is there as the kids never turn anything off. On at least two occasions, when I've been up there bird hunting with the owner, I've witnessed the batteries as low as 11.2V. Like many of our marine customers he knows the voltage should not get that low, but does not really care, and just shrugs and says "We'll replace them when they die". There is a remote generator shed that we built, and an AC shore charger, but they rarely if ever use it.

Those Full River's are still plugging away and have outlasted a flooded L16 bank we did in another cabin, using the identical controller, and with similar usage patterns. For a Chinese AGM the Full River batteries were really a pretty decent value.
Hi Maine Sail
Thanks for clarifying the D8 issue and your encouraging experience with the Fullriver AGM. On my first set of Fullriver 8d AGM's they lasted from 2008 to 2016

Following everyone’s comments, I pulled apart the 2 level battery compartments today to inspect the 8 x Trojan 8D-AGM (230Ah)

Not a pretty sight!..
Reading/Inspection Upper Level after 3hrs disconnected at rest after floating all night
• All 4 batteries on upper level were Hot, showed Distortion, rating from Slight to Very Bad!
• #1 12.7V-Slight Distortion, warm only, #2 10.5V Hot-Bad Distortion, #3 12.8V Very Hot-Very Bloated….. I have taken #2 & #3 out of Bank! #4 12.4V-Slight Distortion warm only….
• Upper Level has only 10cm clearance above batteries
• All Batteries Lower Bank #’s 5,6,7,8, all reading 12.7V and No distortion.
• Lower Bank has 22cm clearance above batteries and all batteries were cool

So I definitely have a heat and installation problem on the upper 4 set of batteries and I am now rethinking… Just buy 6 pieces of Fullriver DC 260-12 that I can fit in the cooler lower lever, if the plate architecture for the DC215-12 J185 size is not significantly better than the DC260-12 D8 size ?

I just asked Fullriver that question as they have been very helpful supplying me with drawings and basic theory and an interesting take on Gel.

Dear Nick,
Sorry for the late reply.

According to the product usage, our engineers think the current AGM battery can meet your application requirements. And there are some things about battery life we want to let you know.

Battery life is related to the discharge depth, discharge frequency, charging voltage, initial charging current, charging time and ambient temperature.

1. When it’s larger capacity of battery, under the same load discharge time, and that it’s shallow discharge depth, so this battery life is longer. In this situation, life of DC260-12 is longer than DC215-12. While if battery to be discharged to the end voltage, then the discharge depth is the same, in this case, discharge time of DC260-12 is longer than DC215-12, but the life of the two ones is the same.

2. The right ambient temperature(15-30°C)is good to prolong the life of battery. The lower the ambient temperature, the lower the discharge capacity. The higher temperature will increase electrolyte depletion and active substance corrosion inside of battery, which will shorten battery life.

The GEL battery has better resistance to high and low temperature, it is suitable to be used in higher ambient temperature range, but for the same size, GEL battery capacity is smaller than AGM’s capacity, so to obtain the same amount of power and same capacity as AGM battery, it requires larger size of GEL battery. Thus, from this point of view, the GEL battery may not necessarily be better than AGM battery. Under the appropriate maintenance and usage, the AGM should satisfy the needs of your purpose of application.

3. The higher the discharge frequency (discharging for three times a week or more), the shorter the battery life; while, the lower the discharge frequency (discharging once a month or more), the longer the battery life.

4. The suitable charging voltage, initial charging current and enough charging time is the premise to make sure the long service life of battery.

Users need to ensure the battery is always fully charged, if not, battery capacity is easier dropping quickly, life will end early. While the battery should be preventing from overcharging, because it will also increase electrolyte depletion and active substance corrosion inside of battery, not only does this cause battery bulge and distortion, but also battery end up early.

5. If battery’s working at high temperature, charging voltage needs to decrease to avoid overcharging of battery; while at low temperature, charging voltage needs to increase so to strengthen the charge acceptance of battery, which make sure the battery can be fully charged. Usually when the temperature is lower than 15°C or higher than 30°C, it requires to have voltage compensation for charging battery, compensation factor is -4mV/cell/°C.

Hope the above comments can be useful to you.

As for your second question, fyi, attached pls find the connection drawing of the eight batteries.
Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.
Best regards,
Milk
Connie Tang / Export Manager


The rack Drawing they sent me for installing the 8x J185’s interestingly showed large air space under the lower 4 batteries instead of on the floor.
Has me thinking, I have always put the batteries bottom on the floor, but does it make sense to create a 15mm air gap underneath them if in the Tropics?

Their Series Parallel drawing for 24V is ok but did not show where to take off from for Neg and Pos distribution. (I sketched it it)

Can anyone suggest which Neg Terminal I should connect the Victron Multi Temperature Sense and which +/- for the Voltage Sense?

I was disappointed getting less than 4 years from the Trojan, but it was mostly my fault for cramming them all on one side in 2016, with half in that upper seat locker.

My liveaboard charging profile is that I will be at 100% SOC by 4pm and about 85% SOC by 10:am next day, when Solar start charging.

So theoretically I will have daily discharge cycle of 15% every day.

Adjusting Life Cycle for 35°C Ambient Temperature for the Philippines, would you say that 4-5 years is the best I should expect for the AGM’s in my application, provided I have installed and am charging properly with temperature compensation?
As others have said…. It is a consumable product….and maybe my expectations were too high I just want to know what to expect realistically.
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Old 13-08-2019, 14:34   #41
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
• #1 12.7V-Slight Distortion, warm only, #2 10.5V Hot-Bad Distortion, #3 12.8V Very Hot-Very Bloated….. I have taken #2 & #3 out of Bank! #4 12.4V-Slight Distortion warm only…

#2 has a shorted cell. The others could very well be OK. The presence of a shorted cell in the bank affects the other batteries, too.



I believe your overheating problems have more to do with the shorted cell than they do with the amount of clearance. I can explain why if you are unaware of the effect.



Quote:

The rack Drawing they sent me for installing the 8x J185’s interestingly showed large air space under the lower 4 batteries instead of on the floor.
Has me thinking, I have always put the batteries bottom on the floor, but does it make sense to create a 15mm air gap underneath them if in the Tropics?
Usual practice is to install them on a floor or shelf and rely on air movement around the sides for cooling. There are convection effects in the electrolyte that result in most of the heat being dissipated from the sides.



Quote:

Their Series Parallel drawing for 24V is ok but did not show where to take off from for Neg and Pos distribution. (I sketched it it)

Can anyone suggest which Neg Terminal I should connect the Victron Multi Temperature Sense and which +/- for the Voltage Sense?
You have it right in your diagram. The idea with parallel banks being that you take the negative and positive off from different banks, which you did.


For the two parallel connections, it would be wise to use a dual-crimp battery terminal, rather than putting two ring terminals under the stud. It is easy for a weak connection to occur between the two ring terminals.


As for the temperature sense, put it on the battery that you think will run hottest. Probably one of the ones in the center rather than the ends.



Quote:

I was disappointed getting less than 4 years from the Trojan, but it was mostly my fault for cramming them all on one side in 2016, with half in that upper seat locker.
Don't kick yourself too much, you had a shorted cell, which is a common thing. Why did you have a shorted cell? Well, heat may have contributed to it but the situation you saw when you pulled the bank apart was effect rather than cause.


Quote:
Adjusting Life Cycle for 35°C Ambient Temperature for the Philippines, would you say that 4-5 years is the best I should expect for the AGM’s in my application, provided I have installed and am charging properly with temperature compensation?
As others have said…. It is a consumable product….and maybe my expectations were too high I just want to know what to expect realistically.

For daily discharge to 85% at 35°C ambient I would say you are doing OK but not great. Adjusted for 50% DOD you got around 600 cycles.


One alternative to consider would be to test your batteries individually and consider replacing the shorted battery. You could perhaps get a few more years out of them.


The final piece of advice I would offer is that you would be well served to put in a bank switch so that you can operate one bank, the other, or both. That way you can check voltages on each bank, and you'll see a shorted cell right away. And you can disconnect the bank with the bad cell and contain the damage better, and possibly replace the one bad battery, safely, without turning off all the power to your boat.
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Old 13-08-2019, 15:04   #42
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

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Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
The final piece of advice I would offer is that you would be well served to put in a bank switch so that you can operate one bank, the other, or both. That way you can check voltages on each bank, and you'll see a shorted cell right away. And you can disconnect the bank with the bad cell and contain the damage better, and possibly replace the one bad battery, safely, without turning off all the power to your boat.
I second this suggestion. This is exactly what I did on our ship.


Allan.
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Old 13-08-2019, 16:09   #43
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Re: Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

Thanks Jammer for taking the time to answer in detail and I will follow your advice.
This was my first experience with a shorted cell and it coincided with me putting 4 batteries in that upper level seat locker


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
#2 has a shorted cell. The others could very well be OK. The presence of a shorted cell in the bank affects the other batteries, too.

I believe your overheating problems have more to do with the shorted cell than they do with the amount of clearance. I can explain why if you are unaware of the effect.
I was amazed that after 8 hrs disconnected the #2 and #3 batteries were still quite hot, #1 and #4 back on float, just slightly warm.

Don't kick yourself too much, you had a shorted cell, which is a common thing. Why did you have a shorted cell? Well, heat may have contributed to it but the situation you saw when you pulled the bank apart was effect rather than cause.

Kind of you to say, but I knew that upper bank was getting hot and just "assumed" that with Temps here in the Philippines recently at +35 C, before the rains, it was OK.
I should have checked earlier before harming the other 3 on that bank


For daily discharge to 85% at 35°C ambient I would say you are doing OK but not great. Adjusted for 50% DOD you got around 600 cycles.

One alternative to consider would be to test your batteries individually and consider replacing the shorted battery. You could perhaps get a few more years out of them.

Here in the Philippines with little support on the water and no local suppliers of AGM, its best to bite the bullet and start with new .
I will scrap 2&3 and sell the rest


The final piece of advice I would offer is that you would be well served to put in a bank switch so that you can operate one bank, the other, or both. That way you can check voltages on each bank, and you'll see a shorted cell right away. And you can disconnect the bank with the bad cell and contain the damage better, and possibly replace the one bad battery, safely, without turning off all the power to your boat.
Managing my batteries has been a learning curve for me since I bought the boat in 2004.
Then she had only 4 8D Truck batteries for the house bank and vented under the dinning salon.

Switching to 8 x AGM Fullriver 260-12 in 2008 was to minimize DoD as I had no solar only Generator to recharge. They lasted ok, but were allowed to deep discharge if not plugged in. Lasted 7 years

2016 is when I installed the Trojan's (Dual Purpose? and moved the 4 pieces from starboard to upper locker.

I think I'm going to stick with the Fullriver DC260-12 but just put 6 in line in the proven lower location, rather that fudge around with a new location for the 8 pieces of J185's

It would only be a single bank and this is how I would wire them. Is that correct?
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