Battery Chargers

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Gee didn't you just have a big thread about how you didn't know how your system worked? Didn't you just post how you trick the system by cycling it?

Besides "working fine" isn't a measurement of use. I could say the same about my charger if I accept that 95% is fine.

Yes, a long thread to discovery everything is working properly as it should. Why not replace your aging charger with a Mastervolt or equivalent instead of complaining? You seem to be doing quite a lot of that lately.

I've seen some great deals on overstock chargers on ebay, the one I picked up was a brand new Mastervolt 24/75 to add to our existing 24/50 for only $400 shipping included. At $2300 new, I certainly wasn't sitting around and "complaining" after that find.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by john61ct

​ProMariner ProNautic P and Sterling ProCharge Ultra both have "custom" setpoint options beyond the canned profiles.

The full manuals are available online to verify, and both are pretty responsive to support questions.

That "Custom" feature was not implemented on their inverter/chargers. The idea is vapor. So if one wants an inverter/charger, versus just a charger... ProMariner/Sterling don't offer user-set-able profiles.

The ProMariner manual says "N/A" for "Custom" voltages. Sterling manual says "Not Used." ProMariner tech support wondered why I even asked... since that feature wasn't ever built in. (Don't know how I was supposed to know that.)

I would also seek to verify whether their chargers have the feature or not before deciding whether to buy. If their inverter/chargers are marked as if they have that feature... but don't... not sure I'd trust their chargers to have that feature even if they seem to have a setting label that suggests it exists. IOW, their credibility -- with me -- sucks.

But then I haven't read the ProNautic P manual for a while, because I wanted an inverter/charger instead...

-Chris

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by john61ct

​ProMariner ProNautic P and Sterling ProCharge Ultra both have "custom" setpoint options beyond the canned profiles.

The full manuals are available online to verify, and both are pretty responsive to support questions.

Originally Posted by ranger42c

That "Custom" feature was not implemented on their inverter/chargers. The idea is vapor. So if one wants an inverter/charger, versus just a charger... ProMariner/Sterling don't offer user-set-able profiles.

The ProMariner manual says "N/A" for "Custom" voltages. Sterling manual says "Not Used." ProMariner tech support wondered why I even asked... since that feature wasn't ever built in. (Don't know how I was supposed to know that.)

I would also seek to verify whether their chargers have the feature or not before deciding whether to buy. If their inverter/chargers are marked as if they have that feature... but don't... not sure I'd trust their chargers to have that feature even if they seem to have a setting label that suggests it exists. IOW, their credibility -- with me -- sucks.

But then I haven't read the ProNautic P manual for a while, because I wanted an inverter/charger instead...

Heh... sorry, John, I went off the deep end on a rant of my own. (After all, SB1 said it was a rant thread...)

Happens I had previously looked at the ProNautic models as a likely replacement for our older/original ProTech-4... assuming I'd have to replace that sometime... and my thought at the time was to use the ProNautic as a multi-bank charger, just as the ProTech-4 was originally set up.

Looked at the manual, etc. (and I've just now re-reviewed that). Yes, in that manual, the "Custom" profile feature does indeed appear to be legit, i.e., actually implemented, and with accompanying user programming instructions included in the manual right from the git-go.

All good.

Except... in the meantime, I worked out a way to install an inverter/charger into our system in a way that works out better for over-all results. That in turn means the original ProTech-4 -- which works fine -- has become a single-bank charger, and I still haven't needed to replace it, so I haven't paid as much attention to that for a while.

But, the Pro Combi inverter/charger was said (by their manual) to have the same "Custom" profile capability... although the manual didn't include programming instructions. Not to worry, I thought; ProMariner will likely fill me in when I ask, when I need (want) to know.

Au contraire. (See my earlier posts.)

And then that was exacerbated by their labeling on the remote unit. Reasoning is: If they're not bright enough to label a pure sine wave inverter as a pure sine wave inverter (instead labeling it as quasi), just how much do they actually know about electricity?

Which in turn means I don't have much respect for ProMariner (and by association, Sterling) just now.

But I didn't meant to sound like I was taking it out on you...



And then if the ProTech-4 craps out, I still may replace it with the ProNautic 60 amp model... because at least the older one has worked as expected... and the prices are generally OK <sigh>...

-Chris

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Their primary criterion is to not take chances of overcharging, causing liability.

I'm sure there is lots of wording in all of their paperwork saying how they are aren't taking liability.

But as a comparison my 50 amp solar controller than cost about the same as a high end battery charger is fully programmable for voltage, currents, times, recharge levels etc.

[seahag]

It does seem like an area that always seems to overpromise and underperform. In the old days I couldn't get batteries to last because mostly the chargers indeed sucked. Then, after going through a number of them, I finally had a combination that worked well for several years. Got a new old boat, and new challenges- it has a really good Balmar to help with regulating but went though a cycle of disappointment leading to purchase of brand new battery banks. Starting with fresh batts really helps, and from there we could track through the weak links in the system. But having a really good charger is worth the money for sure. I don't like battery disappointment and replacing them every couple years isn't cool, especially in every place my boating happens in! That adds to the ripoff feeling! But yes I feel your pain...good luck

[MarkSF]

There is no need to overthink this. There are good battery chargers, and not so good ones. All you need to do is get one of the good ones. I think this applies to most products?

The OP has a Xantrex. The consensus on this forum is that their products are very troublesome and don't work very well. Certainly that's my own experience with a 20A charger of theirs. About a year ago it finally died completely, which was a golden opportunity to replace it with the most highly-reviewed and recommended charger, the ProNautic. Guess what? It works perfectly. Never a single glitch.

[kenbo]

You could also get a 30VDC -20A power supply and control every aspect of your charging process. It's not automatic but once you set the voltage the current tails with respect to the battery bank's internal resistance. Not bad for about $200.

[john61ct]

Caveat Emptor applies to even the best brands

Do your research before plonking cash down, whenever possible use sales channels that offer no questions asked money back.

When the latter is not possible, the former is critical.

Feeling lazy? just post the question here and volunteers will likely do the work for you.

Also, some people pipe generic power supply output through a solar controller to get precise control over drop to Float, but more in home/RV context, marine users usually willing to pay that bit more for KISS

[a64pilot]

Rich will sell you a Sterling Pro Charge Ultra 60 amp for $450 or so.
Not even close to a $1500 problem, but you may choose to go the inverter charger route, My Magnum is fully programmable and will hold absorption until either a set time is reached, or a set charge rate, your choice
http://www.cruiserowaterandpower.com..._Chargers.html

The Sterling will come close, but to get to an honest real 100%, you will have to trick it by turning it off and back on, the Magnum inverter you do not have to trick

[CharlieJ]

Comment on Post #23:

I also had read and believed that chargers should be sized at about 25% of battery AH capacity. But yesterday I came across a spec for Trojan T105 (I have these) and it says charger capacity 10-13%.

Trojan is providing the charge acceptance rater (CAR) for that particular battery. If you had a 1000Ahr bank and a 300A charging source, the most that the bank would accept would be 0.13 x1000A = 130A.
BTW, one of the main discriminators for choosing AGM batteries is that the CAR for some manufactures is 1C.

Comment on Post #33:
I have found Sterling products to be high quality. Their technical documentation, not so much.

[john61ct]

Yes every battery has a specific maximum CAR. Some require .4C as a minimum!

Since the charger will last longer than any one bank, better to future-proof by getting more than you need now.

Same reason to get one with adjustable custom setpoints.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

I have found Sterling products to be high quality. Their technical documentation, not so much.

Not inaccurate, just poorly formatted, sometimes poorly worded or overly conservative.

Very good documentation is very rare across all tech industries, and IMO not nearly as important as QA and good product design.

[hellosailor]

From an off-record discussion with the lead engineer at one battery maker: the charge acceptance rate will also VARY depending on the battery type (AGM vs wet lead) and, oddly enough, whether you are charging with PWM or pure DC. If you charge an AGM battery it matter less, but with wet lead and a pure DC (conventional) charger, as you apply the charge you heat up the electrolyte and it forms micro-bubbles at the plates. Heat it up too much, and these are the seeds of the same bubbles that are literally boiling off electrolyte. But even in the best of circumstances, the DC charge causes microbubbles that in turn raise the internal resistance and prevent recharging, since the bubble is a space without any eelctrolyte, and it blocks the charge.
Their finding was that using PWM (pulsed DC, from a PWM or MPPT controller) pushed more charge, but in the time between pulses, the electrolyte was able to cool enough to prevent most of those microbubbles, effectively allowing faster charging and a higher acceptance rate.
Who would think?
Whether a new high end charger is really going to be old fashioned pure DC or not, you'd have to ask the maker. But the point is, the acceptance rate is NOT one universal constant for all charging situations.
Some makers used to generally say wet lead had a 20% max acceptance rate, while AGM had a 25% acceptance rate, all things being equal and plain DC being used, FWIW. There's some question that pushing AGMs faster will cause more internal heating or more internal breakdown in the long term, even if they seem happy to take the charge.

[john61ct]

No, the consensus now for AGM is that rates much higher than what used to be considered maximum are actually better for longevity.

Basically, with lead there's no such thing as too high a current, the source is just "offering" say 350A, the bank won't accept more than it can handle.

Many FLA's CAR is well below 15%, while some AGM can handle 5C.

Of course safety issues, assuming a temp sensor, which any good source should have

and assuming that the wiring, connectors etc are robust enough to handle it. A 2000AH bank getting 10kA would get hot pretty quickly 8-)

The "max current" ratings are just mfg's legal CYA wrt those last issues.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

using PWM (pulsed DC, from a PWM or MPPT controller) pushed more charge, but in the time between pulses

Reminds me of an "oscillating current" feature, I think Tecmate chargers claim, resting during the cycle to test a battery's ability to hold charge, going back to lower Vabsorb, then back up again, not assuming Full based on just a single decline to lower amps.

Edit: found it

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...596#post272596