Battery System upgrade - add MC 618 / SG200

[phantomracer]

Looking to update the electrical system a bit on Mildred Rose.

I like what i have, but with the MC 618 and SG200 out, makes me want to update!

With so many parts in the system it is getting a bit confusing to me. It is a pretty basic system, but I still don't want to mess it up! I don't think there is a Balmar product I don't have yet, haha!

I painstakingly took the time to trace each wire in the system the way it is, and made a diagram of it. Sorry for my rudimentary powerpoint skills! (thick red lines are battery cable, green is smartgauge network cables)

I also made my best guess on how to add the 618/SG200 to the system. and made a diagram of the proposed change

Looking for input on, 1) if I have it correct, and 2) any improvements. I know of one modification that RC gave me years ago when we discussed adding the duo-charge

[Plumbean]

The closer you can get the voltage sense for the 618 to the battery the better. As it is, I assume that from the post back to the battery is heavy gauge wire, but you will still be losing charge capability because the 618 won't be seeing the losses from the post to the battery. So it will start to cut charging earlier than it should.

[Plumbean]

BTW, I just installed an SG200 with the bluetooth accessory like you are planning (but not the 618 as I already had an ARS 5). One word of advice: Balmar has some detailed instructions about the sequence for updating the firmware that, at least in my case, really needed to be followed carefully in order to get all the firmware updated.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by Plumbean

The closer you can get the voltage sense for the 618 to the battery the better. As it is, I assume that from the post back to the battery is heavy gauge wire, but you will still be losing charge capability because the 618 won't be seeing the losses from the post to the battery. So it will start to cut charging earlier than it should.

Yea I noticed that too. Was installed by the previous owner. Figured I would route that wire to the battery when I ran the other wires.

And adding an alternator disconnect switch and wire the power wire (2) to the alternator side of the switch when I do that (I have a 3rd diagram with this on it too) , so the power (2) wire so the 618 doesn't have power even when the battery switch is off. Now the 614 has no power being on the other side of the main battery switch switch.

In Rod's article he has the #2 going to the switch and the bus, the PO installed the #2 to the alternator for power. Unsure if this is good or bad. The set up as is, really doesn't call for a disconnect switch. Been toying with modifying this with a disconnect switch as the article shows. Right now, if the main battery switch is off, there is no power to the alternator. Unsure what adding an alternator disconnect switch adds with my setup as it is

But the wiring of the 618 and SG200 connections look correct otherwise?

[Plumbean]

Here is my setup. I have an ARS5, so it is a bit different, but this is all based on RC's advice, so you are headed in the right direction.

Wiring Diagram.jpg Views: 121 Size: 406.5 KB ID: 253633" style="margin: 2px" />

[wholybee]

Have you looked at the wakespeed? The 618 seems to be a minor update, and still very painful to use. It's basically 1980's tech, with minor updates since then. The most recent update allows it to be programmed via the SG200, but without that it still requires the PITA magnet, and the display is abysmal.

The wakespeed WS500 is much more advanced. It supports CANBus, USB, and more charge profiles for Carbon Foam and Lithium systems. It can connect to a current shunt to actually know if your batteries are accepting a charge and at what rate. And it will communicate with a BMS in a Lithium system. If you ever go with Lithium, I would not even consider a Balmar regulator.

Note: I currently have a Balmar not the 618, and will be switching to Wakespeed.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by Plumbean

Here is my setup. I have an ARS5, so it is a bit different, but this is all based on RC's advice, so you are headed in the right direction.

Thanks, that looks like my 3rd diagram I am still working on. The 'stud' (bus really) in my system could effectively be replaced with a on/off switch and it would look like yours for the most part.

Still the way the last owner did it seems to work as well, as everything is on the alternator side of the battery, so the power won't be energized when the switch is off. sans the sense wire which will be moved to the battery itself as part of this project. Still I will likely add an alternator disc. switch as part of it. easy enough to get it to (or close to) industry standard.

At least I feel comfortable I am on the right track

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Have you looked at the wakespeed? The 618 seems to be a minor update, and still very painful to use. It's basically 1980's tech, with minor updates since then. The most recent update allows it to be programmed via the SG200, but without that it still requires the PITA magnet, and the display is abysmal.

The wakespeed WS500 is much more advanced. It supports CANBus, USB, and more charge profiles for Carbon Foam and Lithium systems. It can connect to a current shunt to actually know if your batteries are accepting a charge and at what rate. And it will communicate with a BMS in a Lithium system. If you ever go with Lithium, I would not even consider a Balmar regulator.

Note: I currently have a Balmar not the 618, and will be switching to Wakespeed.

Have not looked at it. Been a fan of Balmar stuff since I got this boat (14 years or so) service and support has been top notch. With RC giving their product thumbs up and supporting them too, and putting a lot of tips/tricks on his website makes me feel comfortable with Balmar.

With the bluetooth module, the 618 can be programmed with an app, which is nice, and has profiles for Carbon Foam as well, which is nice, as I have Firefly batteries. I should be set for another 5-10 years (only 6 on mine so far). Hopefully the Lithium battery technology will mature more, and prices should come down, as I suspect that will be the next battery tech I will go with, if these ever give up the ghost.

but will look at wakespeed, I have time before doing this project

[phantomracer]

finished the 3rd diagram showing the 618 w/sense to battery and adding alt. disconnect switch.

Look OK?

[wholybee]

I don't like the alternator disconnect. Maybe someone else can give another opinion, but it seems dangerous. You can (will) blow an alternator by disconnecting it.

The 618 power should come from the engine-on key switch. As drawn, it would always be on, and you only want it on when the engine is running. Turning the key off would stop the alternator safely, btw. So you could put a switch in that power line for an emergency alternator turn off if you think you need it.

Edit:
Also, it looks like you have a way to run the panel/load from either battery. But you are not able to start the engine from the Firefly bank. You might want to add that. If the AGM is dead for some reason, you don't have a way to start the engine to either battery.

[Plumbean]

Alternator disconnect switch is to allow for isolation of the alternator when servicing the engine. It is not used for shutting down the alternator when in use. See: https://marinehowto.com/balmar-mc-61...onnect-switch/

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I don't like the alternator disconnect. Maybe someone else can give another opinion, but it seems dangerous. You can (will) blow an alternator by disconnecting it.

The 618 power should come from the engine-on key switch. As drawn, it would always be on, and you only want it on when the engine is running. Turning the key off would stop the alternator safely, btw. So you could put a switch in that power line for an emergency alternator turn off if you think you need it.

Edit:
Also, it looks like you have a way to run the panel/load from either battery. But you are not able to start the engine from the Firefly bank. You might want to add that. If the AGM is dead for some reason, you don't have a way to start the engine to either battery.

to start engine from firefly, battery switch to "both", starter battery switch to off
- will send power to the starter from house bank
- take the starting battery out of the system (say, it is faulty)

The alternator disconnect switch actually (according to RC) is safter this way, as the regulator can't power up, then the alternator wont either

From his website:

However, in that 0.1% occasion that Darrell forgets to turn it back on, you don’t want to ruin your alternator by having the regulator boot up into a no-load situation.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I don't like the alternator disconnect. Maybe someone else can give another opinion, but it seems dangerous. You can (will) blow an alternator by disconnecting it.

The 618 power should come from the engine-on key switch. As drawn, it would always be on, and you only want it on when the engine is running. Turning the key off would stop the alternator safely, btw. So you could put a switch in that power line for an emergency alternator turn off if you think you need it.

Edit:
Also, it looks like you have a way to run the panel/load from either battery. But you are not able to start the engine from the Firefly bank. You might want to add that. If the AGM is dead for some reason, you don't have a way to start the engine to either battery.

Again, it is very important to look at the diagram, the power to the 618 will be on the alternator side of the disconnect switch, so the 618 won't get powered up! if it were on the other side, it would have power. It was carefully drawn to follow Rod's diagram. We do not want the 618 powered up if the alternator is disconnected!

Yes it will get 12v on the ign input, but the 618 should not come on because the red power won't have power when the disconnect is off.

[phantomracer]

The last couple comments on this thread made me look at the 618's manual again.. I saw, in a warning box, that the sense wire should be on the alternator side of a Disconnect switch..

Is it enough to just have the red #2 wire disconnected?? should the sense go on the battery or be on the other side of the disconnect switch as well ?? Or will the sense wire be not working because the red/#2 wire is also disconnected?

from 618 manual

NOTE: The voltage sense wire MUST be installed on the alternator side of any disconnect device. If a disconnect on the positive output cable of the alternator occurs -- such as a fuse blowing or a disconnect switch -- the sense wire must read the alternator output voltage and not the battery voltage. If the alternator is disconnected from the battery and the regulator is sensing the battery voltage, it will continue to output power, likely causing alternator damage. This is not covered under warranty.

[phantomracer]

OK.. been doing a bit more research.. I really don't like the alternator going through 2 switches! Every diagram I have seen wires it directly to the battery, adding a bus bar (not in diagram, assume it is there!)

Any thoughts on the following?

Assuming I have the 618 and SG200 wired correctly, I plan on making the following changes:

• Add a bus bar/fuse (Blue sea 5196 MRBF Fuses) near battery
• wire alternator directly to battery
  • New cable - 2/0? 4/0?
  • through disconnect switch Blue sea 6006
  • to new bus/fuse bar at battery
• Panel/load only out of 1-2-both-none battery switch
• 618 volt sense wire to battery directly
• 618 12v power to alternator side of disconnect switch

Correct me if I am wrong:

So if alternator disconnect switch is off, and the engine starts, the 618 won't power up and kill the alternator (as indicated in RC's site).

If the 618 sense wire being wired to the battery, would that cause the 618 to come on at all even if the power (2) is not connected ?