Challenges with Solar on boats

[foggysail]

This is turning into an endurance contest

[newhaul]

It's all fun and games unroll here is an insurance claim

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by jheldatksuedu

As for temperature compensation on a device a foot away from the battery that's mostly ********.

Batteries need different charging voltages in at different temperatures. That is one reason why most charge controllers need to be close to the battery bank. The other reason is voltage drop.

https://www.mta.ca/uploadedFiles/Com...mpensation.pdf

[jheldatksuedu]

I'm done with this forum, I try to make a proposal that definitely would work, and in my opinion would have saved energy, politely ask for constructive criticism, and 90% of you people jump on me like I'm the dumbest person in the world. And most of you are still on that kick him when he down bandwagon, in the end we all get what we deserve, and just to let you know I've owned 4 large sailboats and every one of them was set up with the house batteries individually discharged. Granted every one of my boats was over 30 years old, so I come on here to maybe learn something.I finally did, but it really was not worth the effort. It makes no difference if 100/12 is 8 or in the real world it's 6, it was just a ball park example to illustrate an idea. same goes for my choice of 10 gauge wire. Most of you just can't understand that. Anybody that hooks up to anything electronic and starts connecting terminals together blindly gets exactly what they deserve.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by jheldatksuedu

I'm done with this forum, I try to make a proposal that definitely would work, and in my opinion would have saved energy, politely ask for constructive criticism, and 90% of you people jump on me like I'm the dumbest person in the world. And most of you are still on that kick him when he down bandwagon, in the end we all get what we deserve, and just to let you know I've owned 4 large sailboats and every one of them was set up with the house batteries individually discharged. Granted every one of my boats was over 30 years old, so I come on here to maybe learn something.I finally did, but it really was not worth the effort. It makes no difference if 100/12 is 8 or in the real world it's 6, it was just a ball park example to illustrate an idea. same goes for my choice of 10 gauge wire. Most of you just can't understand that. Anybody that hooks up to anything electronic and starts connecting terminals together blindly gets exactly what they deserve.

It seemed more like you were trolling for arguments amongst the dozen or more people who were sincerely trying to help you. IMHO

[witzgall]

Originally Posted by jheldatksuedu

I'm done with this forum, I try to make a proposal that definitely would work, and in my opinion would have saved energy, politely ask for constructive criticism, and 90% of you people jump on me like I'm the dumbest person in the world. And most of you are still on that kick him when he down bandwagon, in the end we all get what we deserve, and just to let you know I've owned 4 large sailboats and every one of them was set up with the house batteries individually discharged. Granted every one of my boats was over 30 years old, so I come on here to maybe learn something.I finally did, but it really was not worth the effort. It makes no difference if 100/12 is 8 or in the real world it's 6, it was just a ball park example to illustrate an idea. same goes for my choice of 10 gauge wire. Most of you just can't understand that. Anybody that hooks up to anything electronic and starts connecting terminals together blindly gets exactly what they deserve.

My posts were trying to help you. Here is the truth, either your way will, work, or it will not. Many folks here think not, and we voiced that opinion. You do not agree, fine. But please consider the concept that we could be right. We are trying to help you design a system that is good, safe, and reliable. It is not an ego thing.

Oh, and if you decide to have two banks, you can wire them that way but combine them with a 1/2/all switch. Use them in the all position, but have the ability to isolate if needed.

Chris

[john61ct]

DLTDHYBOTWO

Originally Posted by witzgall

if you decide to have two banks, you can wire them that way but combine them with a 1/2/all switch. Use them in the all position, but have the ability to isolate if needed.

Much better IMO to have a device in that position that automates whatever your goal may be.

For example, if the B side is for cranking, bilge pumps windlass and electronics critical to navigation and safety, while A is a non-critical Auxiliary bank, then the function desired is to prevent A loads from drawing B down past a certain voltage or SoC, say 70%.

Both banks could operate as one, gaining the Peukert advantages, and reducing overall draw-down DoD in normal operations, as long as the charge sources are there to keep the combined bank topped up.

But say it gets cloudy and the owner didn't want to run the genny at night, so SoC drops to 68%, the cutoff isolates the A circuit, and only that bank gets drawn down further by the fridge, kids' screens etc.

Relying on human intervention would not (certainly in my case) be reliable enough.

[witzgall]

I was only thinking of the house loads, with a separate starter battery. If there is not an additional, separate starter battery, then yes, I think you are right, but I would not use the start for electronics, if only because when you start the engine, it often cycles the electronics due to voltage lag.

For a full-time cruising boat, ant least in my personal experience, managing the batteries manually was never an issue, I preferred it over anything automated. My preferred method of charging from an engine is to have the alternator output go only to the house bank, and a dc-dc charge device (like Balmar Digital Duo-Charge) maintain the starter battery. This worked very well for us on our two year cruise back in 2011-13. I do like automated devices that will protect batteries from being discharged far enough to damage, or not let engines start, or such. Something like the Victron Battery Protect.

There are lots of ways to do this stuff, and much of it comes down to personal preference, backed by some management plan, even if it is completely automated!

Chris

Originally Posted by john61ct

DLTDHYBOTWO Much better IMO to have a device in that position that automates whatever your goal may be.

For example, if the B side is for cranking, bilge pumps windlass and electronics critical to navigation and safety, while A is a non-critical Auxiliary bank, then the function desired is to prevent A loads from drawing B down past a certain voltage or SoC, say 70%.

Both banks could operate as one, gaining the Peukert advantages, and reducing overall draw-down DoD in normal operations, as long as the charge sources are there to keep the combined bank topped up.

But say it gets cloudy and the owner didn't want to run the genny at night, so SoC drops to 68%, the cutoff isolates the A circuit, and only that bank gets drawn down further by the fridge, kids' screens etc.

Relying on human intervention would not (certainly in my case) be reliable enough.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by witzgall

have the alternator output go only to the house bank, and a dc-dc charge device (like Balmar Digital Duo-Charge) maintain the starter battery.

Yes this is IMO best practice.

For me, almost anything is better than the old-school manual Both switch, but I do know many are OK with that.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes this is IMO best practice.

For me, almost anything is better than the old-school manual Both switch, but I do know many are OK with that.

Agreed, but MOST of the problem with 1-2-B switch was due to it being wired as BOTH a charge and use switch instead of just a use switch with the AO going to the house bank. If ONLY a USE switch, they are a very good product.

OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History Alternator/Batteries & "The Basic" 1-2-B Switch BEST Wiring Diagrams

john, you know this already, but it bears repeating.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by jheldatksuedu

I'm done with this forum, I try to make a proposal that definitely would work, and in my opinion would have saved energy, politely ask for constructive criticism, and 90% of you people jump on me like I'm the dumbest person in the world. And most of you are still on that kick him when he down bandwagon, in the end we all get what we deserve, and just to let you know I've owned 4 large sailboats and every one of them was set up with the house batteries individually discharged. Granted every one of my boats was over 30 years old, so I come on here to maybe learn something.I finally did, but it really was not worth the effort. It makes no difference if 100/12 is 8 or in the real world it's 6, it was just a ball park example to illustrate an idea. same goes for my choice of 10 gauge wire. Most of you just can't understand that. Anybody that hooks up to anything electronic and starts connecting terminals together blindly gets exactly what they deserve.

You just don't get it.

This group of people NEVER agree on anything. Ask what color the sky is, and you'll get 10 different answers, and they will not change their minds.

The fact that you got EVERYONE to universally agree that your 4S battery bank with the single battery discharging scheme and the 48v solar controller was a HORRIBLE idea can only mean one thing: it truly IS a horrible idea.

Never in the history of CF has there been such unanimous agreement on a subject. Let that be your warning, you don't want to become a cautionary tale. I'm just picturing hydrogen gas building up in your cabin from overcharged batteries and the sudden high charge rate on a single severely discharged battery getting ignited by your 4 battery selector switch you cobbled together, switching while under load and causing an explosion and debris field...

you might just become infamous!

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by jheldatksuedu

I'm done with this forum, I try to make a proposal that definitely would work, and in my opinion would have saved energy, politely ask for constructive criticism, and 90% of you people jump on me like I'm the dumbest person in the world. And most of you are still on that kick him when he down bandwagon, in the end we all get what we deserve, and just to let you know I've owned 4 large sailboats and every one of them was set up with the house batteries individually discharged. Granted every one of my boats was over 30 years old, so I come on here to maybe learn something.I finally did, but it really was not worth the effort. It makes no difference if 100/12 is 8 or in the real world it's 6, it was just a ball park example to illustrate an idea. same goes for my choice of 10 gauge wire. Most of you just can't understand that. Anybody that hooks up to anything electronic and starts connecting terminals together blindly gets exactly what they deserve.

Please, you are not the victim here.

You posted a bad idea based on a lack of knowledge of first principles and grossly erroneous assumptions and assertions.

There were many earnest posts from which you had the potential to learn why your proposed concept was flawed and why other solutions are superior.

But what you should have really learned, is how not to treat people disrespectfully who are trying to help you, and on this I agree, you didn't learn a damn thing.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

DLTDHYBOTWO Much better IMO to have a device in that position that automates whatever your goal may be.

For example, if the B side is for cranking, bilge pumps windlass and electronics critical to navigation and safety, while A is a non-critical Auxiliary bank, then the function desired is to prevent A loads from drawing B down past a certain voltage or SoC, say 70%.

Both banks could operate as one, gaining the Peukert advantages, and reducing overall draw-down DoD in normal operations, as long as the charge sources are there to keep the combined bank topped up.

But say it gets cloudy and the owner didn't want to run the genny at night, so SOC drops to 68%, the cutoff isolates the A circuit, and only that bank gets drawn down further by the fridge, kids' screens etc.

Relying on human intervention would not (certainly in my case) be reliable enough.

Actually, to split a house bank with a 1/2/All/Off switch is a very valid solution if the purpose is to normally leave the batteries combined (ALL), unless desired to purposely isolate the bank from the distribution panel (OFF) or isolate a portion of the bank for testing, troubleshooting, or servicing purposes (1 or 2).

I do agree that for combining a house bank to a starter battery, an ACR is a superior solution.

Though I don't recommend it for others, as they may not monitor their bank closely enough, I have eliminated the start battery on my boat, to use that real estate for a fourth house battery, and start the engine off the house bank.

There is the risk that the house bank could be depleted to the extent the engine couldn't be started (a very valid reason to have an isolated start battery) but I watch my house bank very closely, and have a L-Ion booster, (that serves as a very useful portable 12 Vdc power supply), in the unlikely event I ever take the house bank too low to start the engine.

[john61ct]

Yes exactly, some may need to dedicate all that weight & space to cranking duties, but there are other ways to ensure always having the ability to start.

I see the jumper pack as belt & suspenders backup.

An LVD or SoC BM triggering a relay cutoff can in normal operations isolate part of the bank to act as Reserve when things get low.

Problem there is a BM like SmartGauge gets confused for a while, so the too-low condition should ideally be a rare exceptional event.

Coulomb-counting BMs can always be reset once everything gets back to 100%.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Agreed, but MOST of the problem with 1-2-B switch was due to it being wired as BOTH a charge and use switch instead of just a use switch with the AO going to the house bank. If ONLY a USE switch, they are a very good product.

I agree with all that, but still have no use for a Combine switch.

I would just stick to designing things around simple ON-OFF and 1-2 switches to switch cranking (and other loads) between Main and Reserve, Boat vs House etc

If using an ACR/VSR, I'd choose one with a momentary self-jump switch, but with the above in place, I just can't see the scenario where I'd ever need to use it.