Charging mystery

[rbyham]

On a recent ICW cruise I took my Honda 2000 along in case my batteries needed charge for the 5 days of travel. At first stop I did run the generator to charge batteries. Honda ran great as usual but the onboard charger would not kick on. Boat is a Catalina 36 and I connect the Honda to boat using same 30amp cable as I do when in the slip. So I am powering the whole boat with 110v. I tested everything including charger breaker. I had power everywhere but the 2 bank charger would not power up works fine in slip just not on Honda. I was about to give up on my now 10 year old Truecharge charger when I happened upon a skip neighbor who has different charger but same issue. As a solution he carries a cheapo Walmart charger and pulls 110 from a regular receptical being powered by his Genny and it works fine. I will probably start to carry a cheapo 8amp charger but would prefer to understand why the on oard charger does not like Honda 110...any thoughts from the electrical engineer s among us?

[Shrew]

Weird. I've never had an issue running a charger with a Honda Generator. What happens? Does charger simply show no voltage? Does it trip a breaker? How large is the charger?

8 amp is a tiny charger.

[Sailmonkey]

Does your reverse polarity indicator illuminate? It’s possible that the charger needs you to tie neutral to ground at the generator for it to work.

[sailorboy1]

Had you been motoring down the ICW? Were the batteries charged because of that?

If yes and it was my boat, the battery charger will only do float and not “kick on” because it thinks the batteries don't need charging, That is just what a “smart” charger does. Meanwhile your friends little cheap “stupid” charger has no programming to tell it otherwise and will charge forever.

[team karst]

Along with Sailorboy, my charger won't do much if the battery(ies) are sitting at 13.5V, like just after a motor/charging run.

[GordMay]

The Truecharge™ 2 Battery Charger can be run from a regular AC power source or from an alternate power source such as a generator. Refer to Appendix A, “Specifications” for AC input current draw to determine the size of generator you need. Many generators provide output voltage that is modified sine wave or modified square wave (MSW) rather
than the true sine wave (TSW) that your utility provides. The Truecharge™ 2 Battery Charger may be used with MSW generators but its lifetime may be reduced somewhat
depending on the severity of any peak voltage overshoots, and the severity of waveshape rise times.

Does the charger give any Fault and Warning Indications?
The LED may illuminate a solid lightm indicating a fault (shuts down charger); or flash
intermittently, indicating a warning (NO shutdown), in combination with flashing Charging Output (%) LEDs. [see Table 1-1, page 1-11/12]

Troubleshooting
Chapter 3 contains information and procedures for troubleshooting your Truecharge™ 2 Battery Charger. [begins page 3-1]

Truecharge™ 2 Series Battery Chargers [September 2008 Rev B]
Owner’s Guide ➥ http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Battery-Chargers/TRUECharge-2/TrueCharge2%20Owners%20Guide%20(975-0401-01-01_Rev-B).pdf

[smac999]

the charger won't care or know if power is from a gen. it should work. I would find and fix the issue. have you gone back to the dock to see if it works again? maybe it died a few weeks ago and you just didn't notice.

an 8a charger is unless. if you are running a 2000w gen your charger should be in the 60a range. otherwise you'll be running it all day long.

[jamhass]

The Honda 2000 is rated for a resistive load (2000w startup, 1500 sustained). Battery chargers are generally inductive loads, so the generator capacity needs to be de-rated to (roughly) 70% of its capacity. For the H2000, this means a startup current of 1400w and a sustained current of roughly 1000 w. This then begs the question of what is the real current requirements of your battery charger, especially when the batteries are down and the charger is trying to start at maximum power?

There are potential solutions. One is to wire a largish motor start capacitor across the AC leads from the generator. This compensates for the inductive load, making it look resistive to the generator. "soft start" devices essentially do the same at a higher price.

There are many Honda 2000 fora on the web where you can get more information.

[smac999]

I think the biggest true charge 1 is 40a. and they made a 20a. a honda 2000 should run a 60 or 80a charger. a 40a should not be an issue.

make sure everything else is turned off. hot water tank etc when testing.

[Davidla]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Does your reverse polarity indicator illuminate? It’s possible that the charger needs you to tie neutral to ground at the generator for it to work.

The Catalina 36 probably has a GFCI installed at the main AC panel and this would trip if the neutral and ground are not connected at the generator. (Also I presume he is using the same cable on the boat to generator connector as boat to slip connector?)

Firstly do you have the GFCI installed? I presume it is not tripping as you say all other AC sources are working.

If there is nothing else obvious, connect a thickish AC style ground wire from the generatory external ground connector to the AC master breaker ground and try again. May help, but I suspect not. The power out of a Honda 2000i is cleaner than most shore power...

[team karst]

Originally Posted by Davidla

The Catalina 36 probably has a GFCI installed at the main AC panel and this would trip if the neutral and ground are not connected at the generator.

....

I don't believe that to be true. GFCI measure the difference between Line and Neutral. If that diff. exceeds 5mA, it will trip. Grounding, at the source, of either L or N does not affect balance. Grounding at the LOAD, of either N or L WILL cause a trip, since now you have a partial current headed down a 3rd path.

[Davidla]

Originally Posted by team karst

I don't believe that to be true. GFCI measure the difference between Line and Neutral. If that diff. exceeds 5mA, it will trip. Grounding, at the source, of either L or N does not affect balance. Grounding at the LOAD, of either N or L WILL cause a trip, since now you have a partial current headed down a 3rd path.

All AC power sources will have the ground wire and neutral bonded together. This creates the alternate path (via the ground) back to the source which is then as you correctly state measured as an imbalance of current (not voltage) between the H and N. The measurement of the difference whether it be 5ma or 50ma is determined by the rating of the GFCI.

Your statement "grounding at the source of either L or N does not effect balance" is incorrect. If you did not have the ground wire (which is also connected to the load) connected to the source, you would not have a comparison. Remember that AC electricity does not need a ground wire to operate, it is simply there to provide that safety ground which goes back to the source supply and connects to the neutral - always.

BTW A ground wire never carries current EXCEPT in the case of a ground fault.

[team karst]

Agree with you last, but not sure I see any issue with mine either. Note that not ALL ac systems are a "one side earthed" design. Many navy ships use floating AC lines, to help mitigate battle damage. As you say, its the current imbalance at issue here. Not voltage imbalance.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Does your reverse polarity indicator illuminate? It’s possible that the charger needs you to tie neutral to ground at the generator for it to work.

That should not ever be the case

[goboatingnow]

It’s more likely the case that the charger did not like the waveform output of the generator. I’ve seen this over the years especially with sophisticated switch mode chargers.