Could use some help diagnosing broken windlass

[Jhardgrave]

Hey guys, yesterday my windlass failed to work for me, I've had a hard time figuring out the issue, I'd appreciate any info yall may have. Here's the info:

Simson Lawrence Sprint 1000 Windlass

- Windlass was functioning flawlesslythe evening before, and then in the morning, nothing.

- When buttons are pressed, the relay can be heard clicking, and 12.6 volts can be measured at the terminals on the windlass motor with button pressed.

- Windlass makes no sound whatsoever when energized.

- Windlass can be turned with a winch handle (gearbox is not jammed).

- I attempted to tighten the nuts on the windlass terminals, but noticed the studs starting to spin. Does this mean the studs have come loose and I have 0 connectivity?

- Has anyone had a similar issue?

Thanks!

[billknny]

If you have 12.6 volts at the terminals, it does mean that there is a break in continuity somewhere. If it was a mechanical issue, you'd see lower voltage as the motor tried to turn.

The good news is that it might just be the brushes.

I'd suggest you take the motor to your local electric motor rebuild shop. They can usually fix anything that might be wrong with it, for a lot less than the cost of a new one.

[Dsanduril]

I'd vote for most likely being brushes as well, with other motor problems being next on the list. Most of these motors use brushes that were originally designed for engine starters. I'd pull the motor and take it to an automotive starter/alternator repair place. Best case they'll be able to replace the brushes and have you on your way, worst case they'll tell you you need a rewind and then you'll have to balance that cost against a new motor.

[Edit] Seems SL made the brush change easy on the 1000, you may be able to pull/check the brushes without taking out the motor.



If you find the brushes short/worn I might still pull the motor myself, that means there is brush dust inside the motor and getting that cleaned out is best.

[donradcliffe]

Its possible the brass studs were overtightened and broke, but it also could be the brushes. Does the motor run either up or down? If its the brushes, a couple of whacks with a hammer could get it going for a while longer.

[Jhardgrave]

Thanks for the tip guys! I will be pulling the brushes tonight after work and will report back.

[Jhardgrave]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Its possible the brass studs were overtightened and broke, but it also could be the brushes. Does the motor run either up or down? If its the brushes, a couple of whacks with a hammer could get it going for a while longer.

It currently does nothing, neither up nor down. I was just reading that the brushes are in some type of plunger setup, and must physically move for the reversing function? Maybe it needs a tappy tap tap.

[Jhardgrave]

Well tried to get to the brushes last night, no luck. Upon further inspection, I think this unit is the sprint 1500, which has a slightly different motor. How do I get to the brushes? I took the two nuts off the bottom cap, but it would not come off, although it would twist around. The only features on the motor exterior are the 2 cable studs, and the 2 8mm nuts on the bottom cap.
Do I have to remove the whole motor to get to the brushes?

See pic at imgur link below:

https://imgur.com/jizJbA5



Im getting a little nervous about this project, were scheduled to go on a 3 day sail down to Offats Bayou Dec. 26, so not much hope for dropping it off at a starter shop or anything, just wanna get it to hang on a little longer...

[Vasco]

Hit the motor with a rubber mallet or 2x4. This'll jog the brushes. Temporary fix.

[a64pilot]

Before I went any further into tearing it apart, I think I’d at least try jumping the solenoid to see if the motor would run or not, if it’s the brushes of course it won’t, but if it runs, then it’s almost certainly the solenoid.

Basically the same trick as using a screwdriver to start a motor, but using a heavy gauge wire.

[donradcliffe]

If you've got the posts isolated, put an ohmmeter across them. Should read less than 5 ohms if the brushes are good.

The end cap contains a bearing for the motor shaft. If you are able to rotate it, the bearing needs to be persuaded to come off the shaft or out of the cap.

[SwellGuy]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Before I went any further into tearing it apart, I think I’d at least try jumping the solenoid to see if the motor would run or not, if it’s the brushes of course it won’t, but if it runs, then it’s almost certainly the solenoid.

Basically the same trick as using a screwdriver to start a motor, but using a heavy gauge wire.

Assuming the OP's observation is correctly stated ("and 12.6 volts can be measured at the terminals on the windlass motor with button pressed.") doesn't this rule that out?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by SwellGuy

Assuming the OP's observation is correctly stated ("and 12.6 volts can be measured at the terminals on the windlass motor with button pressed.") doesn't this rule that out?

Not necessarily, sometimes you can get voltage but not enough current to do anything with it, from say a burnt relay contact.
But your probably right it’s most probably not the relay if he is measuring voltage at the motor, just jumping the relay is so easy that I believe it’s worth doing.
I trouble shoot first by doing easy, then inexpensive, leaving hard and expensive until last.
Once in a blue moon you go change the expensive or hard part, and it still doesn’t work and you then go clean the ground and it does. Makes you kick yourself for not trying the cheap and easy stuff first.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If you've got the posts isolated, put an ohmmeter across them. Should read less than 5 ohms if the brushes are good.

The end cap contains a bearing for the motor shaft. If you are able to rotate it, the bearing needs to be persuaded to come off the shaft or out of the cap.

Exactly, a gentle rocking or prying on the cap should remove the cap, either with the bearing in the cap or remaining on the shaft.

I would also try the "tap" method if you are concerned about time, use a rubber/leather mallet and tap on the sides of the motor near the back/bottom. The brushes will be near the lugs where the power wires connect. If the brushes are worn then tapping (percussive therapy) can get them loosened up just enough that the springs can push them the extra smidge (a precise engineering measurement) required to make contact.

If tapping doesn't work and you can get into the brushes you can sometimes extend their life by putting a small piece of "something" on top of them - this causes the spring to push harder again by "extending" the length of the brush. Not a nice solution, but it will work if you can't find replacements immediately.

FWIW we got by for about 3 months (full time cruising, anchor up/down about 3 times/week) using the tap method when our windlass brushes got old before we replaced them.

This was the best I could come up with on a quick search to give you an idea of what you're looking at:



It's not a great article, but possibly somewhat useful if you've never done this before:

https://www.howacarworks.com/ignitio...-motor-brushes

If your windlass reverses (power up and down) then you will likely have four brushes, if not then maybe only two (but both depend on how SL set up the reversing).

[SwellGuy]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Not necessarily, sometimes you can get voltage but not enough current to do anything with it, from say a burnt relay contact.
But your probably right it’s most probably not the relay if he is measuring voltage at the motor, just jumping the relay is so easy that I believe it’s worth doing.
I trouble shoot first by doing easy, then inexpensive, leaving hard and expensive until last.
Once in a blue moon you go change the expensive or hard part, and it still doesn’t work and you then go clean the ground and it does. Makes you kick yourself for not trying the cheap and easy stuff first.

I think you are right - its definitely worth checking.

But just a side note, if the relay contacts were burnt out (aka, high resistance) you would indeed measure voltage with no real current carrying capacity of the circuit, but this would only be if there were no load applied (an open circuit). As soon as something tried to draw current (such as a motor that isn't broken), the voltage would drop.

This is a handy phenomenon to keep in mind in our low voltage, high current, salty, corroded electrical systems: Voltage present when there's no load that disappears when the load is applied likely means you've got a high resistance (corroded? undersized?) connection somewhere upstream of the load.

Long story short, if the OP is truly seeing 12V on the motor's terminals and the motor isn't doing anything, the problem is within the motor. (broken winding, bad brush, etc.)

[captmikem]

Originally Posted by Jhardgrave

- I attempted to tighten the nuts on the windlass terminals, but noticed the studs starting to spin. Does this mean the studs have come loose and I have 0 connectivity?


Thanks!

To me it sounds like the terminal. normally it is plastic with a copper or brass bolt with the hex end embedded in a plastic keeper with the wire going to the wingdings etc. if it turns, it means it may have had corrosion there, got hot and melted the plastic. I would pull off the connector part and have a look at the internal connection.

M