Depth of Discharge Myth?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Then your antidotal stories are Cruisers with bad systems that tells absolutely nothing about holding plates in general nor their efficiency.

We sure hope you're bad assumptions that you're making on holding plates doesn't carry over into your quote "knowledge of lithium battery systems"... but then again it's an internet chat room

the failure of the holding plate systems were more likely due to diminishing voltage issues that are fairly common with Fla batteries as they age and suffer from PSOC regardless people thinking they are getting to full charge daily or even weekly.
Then there is the pukert effect of large amperage draws associated with refrigeration systems that trigger the lvc on the compressor control unit. It did happen to me one time.
Since conversion the Spencer has not had any of those issues happen.

[john61ct]

And a whole 'nother major tangent begins.

Holding plate refrigeration systems are perfectly fine.

They do not **require** a more powerful electrical setup than evaporators.

But they do really **benefit** from setups where there are times of such high power production that "free excess" energy is available.

To the point that only a small fraction of refrigeration loads needs to come from bank storage.

This can reduce the size of the bank needed; holding plates are in effect an alternative way to store energy, just for that specific use.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

The answer is pure and simple.

I have been very clear to state, every use case is individual and requires a thorough review to determine electrical system requirements that will represent best value for money.

This is a fair enough statement. It does leave out that not all people are motivated or even care about the best value for money. People do things for their own reasons and are quite happy to pay more for things that they value. And they get pissed off when someone tells them what they should spend their money on.

I have also been very clear to state that the recommendations I have made are related to the needs of the average cruising sailboat.

Yes, you have. The error is that you left off average cruising sailboat that I have seen in my very small part of the world.

You assume that your observation are global and just not limited to you.

If your use case is not average, obviously and without doubt your needs may vary.

Great start, you do see that there might be cases where LiFePO4 is a good choice.

In the case of the OP, when Ocean Passagemakers like SV Delos cruise with solar and wind generating all the time, I don’t understand why others couldn’t do same. “Reasons” May be valid and then again, perhaps not.

I'm not sure if you have actually watched Delos. They run their generator all the time. They run it to charge their batteries, they run it to power the AC and who knows what else. What they do not do is only use their solar and wind to meet their power needs.

It is true Delos just switched to LiFePO4 drop ins. They had a factory or distributor rep fly many 1000s of miles to personally consult them. I suspect they got the batteries for free or nearly so.

I would be tempted to transition under these circumstances myself.

However, this is most certainly NOT an average case.

Gosh, corporate sponsorship. I wish I had corporate sponsorship. Corporations are tripping over themselves to get their products on SV Delos. I cannot fault them there.

Delos has what $200,000 plus coming in from their videos. They can afford to put in any technology they want. They could have used Thin plate, Firefly, fule cells, or Lithium et al. But they chose LiFePO4. Did they get a good deal? More than likely but do not make the mistake to think that they went to LiFePO4 because of corporate sponsorship. They went LiFePO4 because of the power that LiFePO4 gives them.

Special case? Duh.

So please, stop bombarding me with one off use cases.

11.34 g/cm3

Every boat (and boat owner) is a one off case. You are being bombarded because you have created a fiction where you say that everyone should use lead. And when presented with exceptions you make the one off statement.

If you are unique, (or wish to pretend to be) I DONT CARE.

What I do care about is folks promoting LFP for average case.

If that were only true. Sigh....

It appears to me and IMHO you care very much. Not really about folks promoting LFP for average cases but that list members object to your proclamations. And ask for proof....

Sorry, but I have performed enough energy system reviews to know it is not the best solution for the average cruising sailboat. Like I said early in.

I agree with you fully and so do the other list members. But you did not stop there.

Pretty much everyone here agrees that there are no drop in LiFePO4 systems that can be run as if they were Lead Acid systems.

We all pretty much agree that LiFePO4 systems require a lot more understanding and hands on than the typical weekend cruiser has or wants.

We all pretty much agree that for the cruise willing to take the time and effort that LiFePO4 will give much better service than FLA (and LA in general).

But you did not stop there. You went far beyond. It appears to me that you required all of us to agree with your opinion and confuse your opinion with fact. Of course I could be wrong...

[evm1024]

Speaking of hands on do any of you remember manual controls of the alternators field current to get the most charging out of your alternators?

Balmar pretty much put that one out of the running.

I do remember and also remember wanting one badly. They really were for long term cruisers.

[SV THIRD DAY]

What ever happened to the simple brevity is the sole of whit posts?

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by evm1024

Speaking of hands on do any of you remember manual controls of the alternators field current to get the most charging out of your alternators?



Balmar pretty much put that one out of the running.



I do remember and also remember wanting one badly. They really were for long term cruisers.

I put that on the 45’ Rhodes ketch we had in the 80’s! Ruh roh, I’m dating myself.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by evm1024

Speaking of hands on do any of you remember manual controls of the alternators field current to get the most charging out of your alternators?

Modern equivalent is Al Thomason's open source Very Smart Regulator / "Smart Alternator Regulator" project

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...rt-195059.html

[rgleason]

I think the thread discusses and reflects on the basic premise of the OP proposition.
1980's alternator control schemes are interesting, but not germaine.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Modern equivalent is Al Thomason's open source Very Smart Regulator / "Smart Alternator Regulator" project

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...rt-195059.html

I have one. Nice project. Inspiring.

the point with tthe manual voltage regulation is that we have been trying to get the most out of lead acid for decades. And that in a decade or few perhaps LiFePO4 controls will be out of the dark ages.

Eventually I'll post something about how the VSR works with my 700 ah LiFePO4 house bank.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I think the thread discusses and reflects on the basic premise of the OP proposition.
1980's alternator control schemes are interesting, but not germaine.

The thread was hijacked because the LiFePO4 vs FLA - The Real Deal thread was closed.

The myth was resolved to be true.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by evm1024

The thread was hijacked because the LiFePO4 vs FLA - The Real Deal thread was closed.

The myth was resolved to be true.

there was some good data about DOD and longevity for both Fla and Lfp systems.
But yes deeper discharge causes shorter life.

[john61ct]

Yes every 50 OT posts or so let's keep inserting a reminder.

Rehashing that all over again would now be OT itself.

Which means in this one we can talk about **anything**.

Anyone game for crimping vs solder vs both? 8-D

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by newhaul

the failure of the holding plate systems were more likely due to diminishing voltage issues that are fairly common with Fla batteries as they age and suffer from PSOC regardless people thinking they are getting to full charge daily or even weekly.
Then there is the pukert effect of large amperage draws associated with refrigeration systems that trigger the lvc on the compressor control unit. It did happen to me one time.
Since conversion the Spencer has not had any of those issues happen.

That’s good.

I’ve installed a number of evaporator box and plate refrigeration systems .

I’ve never had a problem on FLA banks with proper charging systems.

They just sit there and run; nobody has to do anything.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes every 50 OT posts or so let's keep inserting a reminder.

Rehashing that all over again would now be OT itself.

Which means in this one we can talk about **anything**.

Anyone game for crimping vs solder vs both? 8-D

Cat vs mono? Everyone knows that Mono is more cost effective. So no-one should even consider a cat given the return on investment.

[evm1024]

First thing the surveyor does before even seeing the boat is mark "electrical system need work".

Close to 100% of boats have defective electrical (read charging) systems.

To say with proper charging systems is to ask for a perfect world. And a bit of a sham. IMHO