Distributed Electrical Systems or Standard Panel? Which do you like?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Frankly

I think some are confusing a distributed system (several panels thru out the vessel), and a single high amp bus that is tapped with solid state switch/ over current devices at various loads. Been messing with this stuff for seventy years, can't imagine the mind set that thinks the latter is a good idea. One nearby lightning shot and your fine yacht becomes a row boat.



Had a friend that had a modern NMEA 2000 to the hilt power yacht. Took a direct hit in the Bahamas. They had to remove the propellers and tow it back to the states. Couldn't even start the engines because of all that non functioning electronics.





Frankly

All these systems can be designed to have manual overrides. Unfortunately some manufacturers don’t bother . I would never have a control system that doesn’t have a manual override

[facciatosta]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

If the system goes down everything on it goes down. Tried and failed in the aviation industry. People died. Multiple redundancy became the fix but its doubtful that the typical boat owner can ford that.

No matter how many redundant paths there are they all sooner or later converge to the single failure point don't they?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Frankly

I think some are confusing a distributed system (several panels thru out the vessel), and a single high amp bus that is tapped with solid state switch/ over current devices at various loads. Been messing with this stuff for seventy years, can't imagine the mind set that thinks the latter is a good idea. One nearby lightning shot and your fine yacht becomes a row boat.

Had a friend that had a modern NMEA 2000 to the hilt power yacht. Took a direct hit in the Bahamas. They had to remove the propellers and tow it back to the states. Couldn't even start the engines because of all that non functioning electronics.


Frankly

The former is what I’m considering. A high amp bus going fore and aft with taps for distributed small panels in areas that make sense. Like running lights at the helm, instead of on a switch panel that controls the galley (and everything else)

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by facciatosta

No matter how many redundant paths there are they all sooner or later converge to the single failure point don't they?

Do you want that failure point to be something that is easily repaired? Compare a simple mechanical switch to a network interface circuit board with surface mount chips that are so difficult to repair the the manufacturers just replace them.

Besides being locked in to a specific manufacturer you are dependent on that manufacturer staying in business and it's support of that product for the life of your boat. Ever hear of orphaned systems? A manufacturer goes belly up or decides that a product line is unprofitable and drops it. I can probably name 50 computer companies that no longer exist. I have known companies that have had to throw away millions of dollars of hardware because their computers are no longer supportable.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Do you want that failure point to be something that is easily repaired? Compare a simple mechanical switch to a network interface circuit board with surface mount chips that are so difficult to repair the the manufacturers just replace them.

Besides being locked in to a specific manufacturer you are dependent on that manufacturer staying in business and it's support of that product for the life of your boat. Ever hear of orphaned systems? A manufacturer goes belly up or decides that a product line is unprofitable and drops it. I can probably name 50 computer companies that no longer exist. I have known companies that have had to throw away millions of dollars of hardware because their computers are no longer supportable.

But if I have a circuit breaker fail. I can’t “ repair” that either

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

But if I have a circuit breaker fail. I can’t “ repair” that either

You can replace it in under 10 minutes with a spare. Do you carry spares? You can buy replacements at just about any marine chandlery and many electronics suppliers - they are a very common part. Can you say the same thing about a network controlled electronic switch?

[rslifkin]

Keep in mind, you can add switches for lights at the helm without having to put the breakers there. Switches are smaller, so that may be easier.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Keep in mind, you can add switches for lights at the helm without having to put the breakers there. Switches are smaller, so that may be easier.

That’s true.

I was just reaching for an example. Maybe that wasn’t the best.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by stormalong

You can replace it in under 10 minutes with a spare. Do you carry spares? You can buy replacements at just about any marine chandlery and many electronics suppliers - they are a very common part. Can you say the same thing about a network controlled electronic switch?

I can replace an electronics module in 10 mins sure. I’m an electronics engineer by profession.

The point is anything can fail. You just need a workaround plan.

Note I am referring to my own designs , I carry spares etc. And all my stuff has manual overrides.

Some commercial stuff has this type of manual overrides. Some doesn’t

However we have so many single points of failure these days. How many yachties can navigate without electronics for example.

[Madehn]

"The former is what I’m considering. A high amp bus going fore and aft with taps for distributed small panels in areas that make sense. Like running lights at the helm, instead of on a switch panel that controls the galley (and everything else)"

in the past 5 years i have replaced almost every wire in my boat-- all wired back to one big central panel-- pulling all that wire was a complete *&^%$! Just yesterday i was musing about things i would have done differently if i had known and one of the things i came up with was putting a panel in the aft cabin, one in the galley and one in the fore cabin. it would have made so many things so much simpler to do and saved me hours of routing wires. personally i would stay WAY away from electronic switches and all that. Simplify Simplify Simplify. at least that is the right choice for me and my boat- other opinions may like your mileage vary. also as another point as i have added more systems to the boat I am rapidly running out of room on the DC side of the panel- i had to add a subpanel to the AC side when i added the inverter and second AC unit.

[goboatingnow]

Given the amount of electronics on a modern boat , from refrigeration to navigation etc. Some of it mission critical , I’m amused that people are specifically focused on electronic switching ! .

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by facciatosta

No matter how many redundant paths there are they all sooner or later converge to the single failure point don't they?

It’s important to review failure modes .

If you rely on electronic navigation, for example, it’s failure isn’t easily repairable , so you either have redundancy ( which a lot of people have these days ) or you’re in trouble. ( or you learn traditional nav techniques )

So for distributed electronic switching / distributed electronic fuse systems , yiu either need easily replaceable modules , or manual overrides. Manual overrides are easily to do in such system , yet some systems have little support. you can quite easily manually override simple digital switching systems. It might be inconvenient, buts it’s manageable.

So it’s all a “ call” , based on your comfort zone , technical knowledge, and systems design. What might be comfortable for one person is impenetrable technology to another.

In itself electronics are extremely reliable. I can design solutions that would survive conditions that would extinguish all human life. But no one would pay for it. Like everything reliability is a cost.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Given the amount of electronics on a modern boat , from refrigeration to navigation etc. Some of it mission critical , I’m amused that people are specifically focused on electronic switching ! .

You know, you’re not wrong here. It troubles me that all of the new marine stuff is so heavily reliant on electronics. Engines are probably the worst offenders. Well I won’t be going this complicated route, because I have enough other things that are complicated to worry about, but you make a good point here in this post.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Chotu

You know, you’re not wrong here. It troubles me that all of the new marine stuff is so heavily reliant on electronics. Engines are probably the worst offenders. Well I won’t be going this complicated route, because I have enough other things that are complicated to worry about, but you make a good point here in this post.

Unfortunately the days of a purely mechanically controlled Diesel engines are numbered , with these days only quite small engines surviving , and only for a couple of years. The emissions regulations force the adoption of precise electronic control

What’s surprising , is people will duplicate nav gear etc , but never seem to give a thought to backups for their electronics on the engine , yet ECUs can be easily replaced etc.

Within 5 years there won’t be a new diesel without some form of ECU.

( and can you imagine the tech issues with electronic boats !! )

I m just hoping for the inevitable open source Arduino ECU project.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Unfortunately the days of a purely mechanically controlled Diesel engines are numbered , with these days only quite small engines surviving , and only for a couple of years. The emissions regulations force the adoption of precise electronic control

What’s surprising , is people will duplicate nav gear etc , but never seem to give a thought to backups for their electronics on the engine , yet ECUs can be easily replaced etc.

Within 5 years there won’t be a new diesel without some form of ECU.

( and can you imagine the tech issues with electronic boats !! )

I m just hoping for the inevitable open source Arduino ECU project.

Do you know what I really don’t like about that? It makes it difficult to fix an engine. I have twin outboards on my Catamaran. I am very concerned that if something goes wrong with these engines, I don’t have what it takes to fix it. And I don’t mean that intellectually, I mean the diagnostic tools. With a car, I can easily take the readings from the ECU, find a fault code, and it actually is easier to fix because it clues you in on some extra information you may not have just from the symptoms. Between older type of mechanic knowledge on how to fix an engine, and the newer codes they spit out, you can really pinpoint a problem. However, I have Evinrude E tech engines. I don’t know how to pull codes out of these. Does anyone?