FireFly Battery Long Term Users - Speakup

[kmacdonald]

IMHO the way to go is with prismatic cells. They can be had for less than lead acid. Eve cells are good and can be ordered from China. You will wait quite some time to get them but half the price of them in the US. Safe
And cost effective implementation is possible with DC to DC chargers and alternator output to lead acid start battery. For drop in, SOK batteries are good. There are also good rack mounted LFPs available.

[Dave Lochner]

Originally Posted by crayiii

Thread drift? You wanted to know about quality and I shared what one of the main distributors decided. Sorry it isn't what you want to hear.

The screenshot is a question that I posted.

A week or so ago I asked my contact at OPE about the decision, his answer was supply chain problems and warranty work. OPE is a small company and they couldn't support all the warranty claims.

[Dave Lochner]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

That post about quality is long ago and someone really must have put some work into digging it up. Heck Rod posted on another FF thread just a week ago. The quality issue for right after switching manufacturing to India is well known and that was years ago. OPE still is the distributor and the batteries are right on their webpage.

Back on thread topic for USERS: my 4 made in India Firefly batteries are 1.5 years old and have had no issues.

Nope, that is my post from a day or two ago.

[sailorboy1]

OK OPE is not going to be the distributor anymore. I don't really care if FF sells any more batteries far as this thread goes.

This thread is about long term users, who will be past warranty and supply chain issues.

[phantomracer]

Just finished my test of my 2 FF batteries (results here) .

Nutshell, my unscientific amateur test on my 2 FF batteries seem to show, after 21 hours of 5a discharge (car headlight) it did not hit rock bottom (10.5v)

Battery 1 got down to 11.44
Battery 2 got down to 11.79

guessing that is close enough for a 20hour test for the equipment I have. Conservatively, it seems to have lost no capacity in 6 years of hard abuse.

Hope FF get their act together and improve reliability, as these seem to be a good alternative to lithium...but I would guess lithium is the future.

[sailorboy1]

I have the feeling the devil is in the details. The details in this case being what the goal was of the FireFly batteries. If you read the history the task given the designer by Caterpillar was:

1- batteries that wouldn't suffer from lost capacity while sitting around becoming partially charged
2- batteries that lasted longer because they didn't corrode as much internally

These were the goals of a large construction equipment manufacturer. This equipment isn't hooked up to battery chargers and sit around lots of times unused for long periods.

But this is not not how the majority of boaters use their batteries. Most boats use their batteries on the weekend and then the boat returns to the dock and plugs in. Throughout this thread it appears off grid FF users are getting good results as they use and "abuse" their batteries. But users plugging in, charging, and floating their batteries don't appear to be getting the same.

I wonder if over time we will find the same with lithium. I, and I am sure lots of others, have experienced how when their laptops are plugged in all the time the battery capacity suffers. Guess now that there are all these "drop in" LFP batteries we will see in a few years.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I have the feeling the devil is in the details. The details in this case being what the goal was of the FireFly batteries. If you read the history the task given the designer by Caterpillar was:

1- batteries that wouldn't suffer from lost capacity while sitting around becoming partially charged
2- batteries that lasted longer because they didn't corrode as much internally

These were the goals of a large construction equipment manufacturer. This equipment isn't hooked up to battery chargers and sit around lots of times unused for long periods.

But this is not not how the majority of boaters use their batteries. Most boats use their batteries on the weekend and then the boat returns to the dock and plugs in. Throughout this thread it appears off grid FF users are getting good results as they use and "abuse" their batteries. But users plugging in, charging, and floating their batteries don't appear to be getting the same.

I wonder if over time we will find the same with lithium. I, and I am sure lots of others, have experienced how when their laptops are plugged in all the time the battery capacity suffers. Guess now that there are all these "drop in" LFP batteries we will see in a few years.

This isn't our case at all. We live onboard and sail full-time. We are rarely plugged in.

I think the issue is they have really bad quality control and since we have a six battery bank, we played the odds and lost on at least one battery.

Instead of taking our bank apart and figuring out which one(s) are bad and then trying to get a warranty replacement, we're just moving to a Victron lithium system.

It sounds like you got lucky with your FF bank. How big is it?

[mjgill1]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I have the feeling the devil is in the details.

But this is not not how the majority of boaters use their batteries. Most boats use their batteries on the weekend and then the boat returns to the dock and plugs in. Throughout this thread it appears off grid FF users are getting good results as they use and "abuse" their batteries. But users plugging in, charging, and floating their batteries don't appear to be getting the same.

I wonder if over time we will find the same with lithium. I, and I am sure lots of others, have experienced how when their laptops are plugged in all the time the battery capacity suffers. Guess now that there are all these "drop in" LFP batteries we will see in a few years.

I think you have a very valid point here. I have been slowly researching battery types for the last two years and decided against FF based on their requirements for periodic high C charging which I can't provide in a cruising environment (With our particular boat). With regard to LFP's what you said is right in line with everyone I have talked to. The consensus from my conversations with different dealers is that LFP seems to be happiest running between 20%-90% SOC. That's generally speaking and I don't want to throw the thread into a debate please. We still have AGM, but it's nearly time to replace them so threads like this and others are great.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by mjgill1

I think you have a very valid point here. I have been slowly researching battery types for the last two years and decided against FF based on their requirements for periodic high C charging which I can't provide in a cruising environment (With our particular boat). With regard to LFP's what you said is right in line with everyone I have talked to. The consensus from my conversations with different dealers is that LFP seems to be happiest running between 20%-90% SOC. That's generally speaking and I don't want to throw the thread into a debate please. We still have AGM, but it's nearly time to replace them so threads like this and others are great.

This was the first time I tested mine after 6 years , and they tested as good as new. The restoration charge , from what I understand, is if your batteries are losing capacity. Being off grid for 6 years on my fireflies shows they can be abused and they seem to like it.

Probably moot anyway as it seems hard to get firefly batteries!

Unsure if it is coincidence, or evidence, that the FF like being treated badly from my use and abuse.

What would hold me up again is the many stories of many warranty claims since they went off-shore.

All that being said, I suspect with lithium drop ins becoming more popular, that will be the way of the future.

[sailorboy1]

Been more sunshine here last couple weeks so my solar has been doing a better job of charging. It looks lately that I am about 0.1V higher battery voltage in the morning than I was a month ago. I have my solar float set to go into float at about 0.8%C (about 1 amp per G31 and twice the "recovery" finish rate) and last week was the first time I got into float in 3 months. Most mornings my batteries are 75-80% state of charge per my battery monitor. My solar charges at 4%C (0.04C) on a good day and sometime I might run the Honda and charge a hour at about 0.15C. In 1.5 years I have charged once at 0.23C.

My batteries seem fine and I would say this "requirement" of high charging is apparently not needed. But I would think if you regularly got you batteries down below 50%, held then there a long time, that there might be more need of this high rate of charge. In other words using FireFly batteries to get around that you don't have enough capacity probably isn't going to work out.

[Britishsea]

Thxs for posting this data Phantomracer. The performance you are getting from your Fireflys is phenomenal.

Just for another data point - I had a Firefly battery replaced on warranty after a failure 16months from purchase (documented elsewhere on this forum) . I pulled that replacement battery from the boat this week for a restoration charge. I got 70 ah out of it before it dropped to 11.3v, at which point I stopped the testing and recharged.

I'll post data after the restoration charge is done if anyone in interested.

Anecdotally, there seems to be a performance difference btw the batteries manufactured in Illinois vs the India production. Perhaps that has been addressed now. Annoying, as when I purchased the batteries, I specifically asked the dealer if there were any teething pains with the production shift and they acted like I was crazy for asking the question.

[sailorboy1]

My 4 G31 FF batteries are now 18 months old and had been everything I hoped as a full time boater.

I have not had shore power now the last 6 months and think that it was only available about 4 months of the 18 I have had them. Even when I had shore power I would only turn on the battery charger if it was cloudy a few days and used the shore power pretty much as would use my Honda+battery charger if on anchor/mooring. Based on my solar controller my batteries have only gone in to float 3 times in the last 6 months so for most part they are always in a partial state of charge. But they have mostly been in the 70-98% state of charge range.

I have noted that for me it seems impossible to reach the 0.5amp/battery acceptance charge rate. I spent 8 hours motoring yesterday with full sun. So the batteries quickly got to absorption and current limited where the solar took over from the alternator. The batteries spend 3 hours accepting 1-1.5A/each. This is as low of acceptance I have even seen. I do know that "old" manual said in the recovery procedure than 1.5A was the finish point.

[sv.antea]

I built a battery discharger. Headlight sealed beam, voltage cut off device and a DC watthour meter from the internet. Incandescent bulb actually makes an aproximation of constand current load, as the voltage drops, the resistance does too.

[foojin]

2.5 years ago we installed three L16s, after killing many, many LA golf cart batteries through the years.

We rarely let them drop below 50%. PSOC is my chosen weapon of abuse. So far, and touch wood, they seem happy and we have zero complaints.

I do agree with those who say the marine market will likely be dominated by lithium drop ins, which are becoming simple to install, but I will keep my Fireflies.

[Bear-O-Ness]

I have three of the Firefly 12v for my house bank. Have had them just over 2 years and have had issues for the past 1.5 years. I have done three restoration charges and am still not able to run refrigeration over night from a 100% charge. My next step is to restore and test each one individually. I know they are suppose to be brought down to 10.5v but is that resting voltage? I cannot find that information anywhere. With a load on the batteries they can be brought to 10.5v but as soon as the load is removed, the voltage goes up, which is to be expected. I can find no information on how to determine the 10.5 volts. Is it with a load or after the battery rests for several hours? Thanks for any experience on this.