Firefly vs Lithium ?

[Steve Bedford]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

Steve ,are Fireflys considered AGM ,just wondering .

Yes, but I was told they are closer to Lithium Battery characteristics.
Steve

[andreas.mehlin]

How would Firefly perform with an electric motor at 10kw?
How would it take peak discharges around 10kw? (a 220 Ah 48v bank), which equals to 1.42C

[smac999]

take a look at the firefly L15s they have way higher cycle life then the group 31. and less wiring for your large bank.

you need to add the price of a BMS to the lith bank. IE the never die one is around $1500

[admiralslater]

I can’t speak to a comparison but mine have been performing well even after whoops moment. In early November I disconnected my solar in anticipation of new panels and accidentally hit the freezer switch. Upon my return in early January the batteries where definitely discharged. I turned on my sterling 60 amp charger and hoped for the best. They immediately operated in the same parameters as last year.
I upgraded my solar with 2 new 345 watt LG panels which augmented the existing pair of 130 watt panels for a total of 950 watts. The LGs have a victron 100/30 mppt each and the pair share one. I have 5 FF 31 for a total of 550 amphr capacity. My normal dusk to dawn draw down is about 120 amperes. We use a toaster and hair dryer once a day through a Victron 1200 watt inverter
The big plus with lithium is charge acceptance and weight ,well the FF lose on weight but yesterday I put in 3.5 kilowatts WOW. That was more than normal but I ran the water maker for 6 hours sothe controllers just kept pumping in the sunshine. The big panels are over my davits so I “turboed” the installation with a tilting rack boy what a difference.
If you can manage it using a separate controller per panel is the way to go ,the data shows this every day.

[fxykty]

I'm looking to replace my deteriorating 6x 12V 110Ah Victron Energy AGM house bank. This replacement has been accelerated due to finding two of the batteries are near dead. Rather than replacing just the two batteries to refresh a tired bank, I'm going to replace the whole bank. Within 3 years we'll finally be cruising full time so this is a bit early, but will allow us to test the system to make sure it works for us.

Currently we have ~330Ah capacity available, which lasts us 4-5 days with our 660W of solar and the wind generator offsetting about a third of our usage (more on passage usually). But our typical usage, with no shore power unless the boat is on the hard and a minimum of engine and generator usage (by preference), gives us a PSOC 50%-85% profile, with occasional (once a week or fortnight) 100%. Not the best for our AGM batteries, I know, but it is what it is.

I've been looking seriously at Lead Crystal (Betta Batteries) and Carbon Foam (Firefly Oasis) AGM batteries and LiFePo batteries, as they are all more tolerant of PSOC usage profile and also more tolerant of deeper discharges. Unfortunately in NZ we have few sources and the local prices are relatively quite high, so experimentation is not an option. What I've figured out:

• Could stick with AGM or even go with 6V Trojans, but our PSOC usage profile is not suitable for these battery types.
• I can't find any reviews of LC batteries in marine usage, so they're off the table. And the local supplies are 2x the price of premium AGMs.
• LiFePo are expensive (3-4x premium AGMs), even DIY is 2x price of premium AGMs, and seem to really require careful management with advanced BMS and control systems - still seems to be an early adopter technology. Saving weight would be nice, but is not critical for us.
• Firefly batteries seem to be proven in marine usage, but not available in NZ. However, I think these are the best option for us if I can find a way to get them here. They're about the same price as premium AGMs.

I contacted Firefly directly via their website and they said since they have no distributor in Australia nor NZ they can ship directly ex-factory from India. They've quoted me US$340 for the G31 12V 116Ah battery and US$460 for the L15 4V 450Ah battery, plus sea shipping from India to NZ of around US$87.50 each for the G31 and US$116.67 each for the L15.

I'm thinking of buying 6x L15 to create a 12V 900Ah house bank. This will give us more capacity to stay above 50% DOD (more cycles but more importantly not as much voltage drop) and will allow us to remove our diesel generator. Only 2 engines to maintain sounds good to me. More solar will fit on our bimini and we should be able to easily run our washing machine (AC via inverter) and water maker (Desalator D60 12V) from the bank. The original owners of the boat installed the generator after a couple years of full time cruising, but didn't bother to optimise engine charging first (90A alternators and no external regulation, so this is easy upgrade). I think with proper engine charging and a higher capacity bank tolerant of PSOC and we can get rid of the generator. If we find a generator necessary, we'll get a petrol portable.

This works out to US$2760 (batteries) + US$700 (shipping) = US$3460 and 255kg of weight (for the G31 we would have needed 8 for the same size house bank, so US$3,420 and 276kg for that format). Our current AGMs weigh 192kg, but removing the diesel generator gains us ~80kg, so weight will wash out. The L15 batteries have a smaller footprint but are almost twice as high as our current AGMs; luckily our battery compartment has plenty of height and the L15s will fit. Local DIY LiFePo using Sinoplay cells would be about US$7,000 but only weigh 130kg. That 125kg would be nice, but with just two of us on the boat not a big deal.

Any thoughts about this plan?

Any experience with the India-built Fireflies regarding quality relative to the US-built ones?

[a64pilot]

I would keep the generator, with it, you ought to be able to get to 100% SOC at least once weekly, likely more than that.

Where will you be cruising, maybe patch your bank until then?
I bought our bank a few years before we left, in hindsight, I shouldn’t have, I should have left with a fresh bank. I don’t have any issues, just will have to replace the bank a few years earlier than if I had waited.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I'm looking to replace my deteriorating 6x 12V 110Ah Victron Energy AGM house bank.

Currently we have ~330Ah capacity available, which lasts us 4-5 days with our 660W of solar and the wind generator offsetting about a third of our usage (more on passage usually). But our typical usage, with no shore power unless the boat is on the hard and a minimum of engine and generator usage (by preference), gives us a PSOC 50%-85% profile, with occasional (once a week or fortnight) 100%. Not the best for our AGM batteries, I know, but it is what it is.
[*]Could stick with AGM or even go with 6V Trojans, but our PSOC usage profile is not suitable for these battery types.

I contacted Firefly directly via their website and they said since they have no distributor in Australia nor NZ they can ship directly ex-factory from India. They've quoted me US$340 for the G31 12V 116Ah battery and US$460 for the L15 4V 450Ah battery, plus sea shipping from India to NZ of around US$87.50 each for the G31 and US$116.67 each for the L15.

... and will allow us to remove our diesel generator. Only 2 engines to maintain sounds good to me. ... If we find a generator necessary, we'll get a petrol portable.

Any thoughts about this plan?

I think I'd keep the genset, and if service access is easy enough, just install 6 or 8 good flooded lead acid (FLA) GC2 or maybe L16 batteries in series parallel... Trojans, for example.... and call it good.

Or if service access sucks and/or your worried about off-gassing, then maybe Lifeline AGM versions of GC2s or L16s if those are available in NZ at decent prices compared to messing around with importing Firefly batteries from India. On paper, they do seem to offer advantages, but the hassle you'd have to put up with just doesn't seem worth all that pain, to me.

Yes, PSOC is perhaps an issue. So does that mean you might only get 6-7 years from a less expensive bank, versus 7-8 years (or whatever) from a Firefly bank? (Just example numbers, of course, but perhaps if you can quantify your expectations from each kind of installation, maybe you could better decide how much pain is worth it.)

-Chris

[fxykty]

I don’t understand the ‘keep the generator’ advice given what I’ve already written. The major con is that it is a third engine to maintain and it has no purpose other than to charge batteries. Upgrading the engines’ charging will substitute for the generator’s charging capacity, and most of the time the engine charging will be a by-product of using them for propulsion. Doubling the solar to start will take care of the rest. If we find that we desperately need a generator every fortnight or month then we’ll buy a portable. A tenth of the cost and easier maintenance.

Regarding life, the premium AGMs we’ve got now have demonstrably deteriorated in 4 years, with perhaps another two years of life. And FLA golf cart batteries and replacement AGMs are not tolerant of our usage profile.

FFs claim a decade of use. That’s still to be determined as I don’t think anyone has had them that long, but they certainly do have 3-4x the cycles at 50% DOD. Refer to www.bruceschwab.com for the specifications.

What’s the hassle with importing batteries? You buy stuff overseas all the time don’t you?

Even if available in NZ, battery prices here are high relative to even Australia, which is also a high cost region. Direct importing with the help of a broker is not that hard.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I don’t understand the ‘keep the generator’ advice given what I’ve already written. The major con is that it is a third engine to maintain and it has no purpose other than to charge batteries. Upgrading the engines’ charging will substitute for the generator’s charging capacity, and most of the time the engine charging will be a by-product of using them for propulsion. Doubling the solar to start will take care of the rest. If we find that we desperately need a generator every fortnight or month then we’ll buy a portable. A tenth of the cost and easier maintenance.

Regarding life, the premium AGMs we’ve got now have demonstrably deteriorated in 4 years, with perhaps another two years of life. And FLA golf cart batteries and replacement AGMs are not tolerant of our usage profile. Also critical for running bigger tools and our AC watermaker.

FFs claim a decade of use. That’s still to be determined as I don’t think anyone has had them that long, but they certainly do have 3-4x the cycles at 50% DOD. Refer to www.bruceschwab.com for the specifications.

What’s the hassle with importing batteries? You buy stuff overseas all the time don’t you?

Even if available in NZ, battery prices here are high relative to even Australia, which is also a high cost region. Direct importing with the help of a broker is not that hard.

For us... the generator is also hot water and (on a few odd occasions) very much welcome when we need a bit of time to prime the engine without which we would not have enough juice to complete the priming cycle.

For our firefly batteries, it was the cheapest no-brainer drop-in option when changing battery chemistries. All our devices are reprogrammable and we were able to just drop-in the new firefly batteries and adjust the programming of the alternator, alternative energy systems, and battery charger.

The firefly batteries have a 5 year warranty, starting with full replacement and then prorated. However, I'm still trying to understand how they define the total number of amp-hours that can be expected to be drawn from the batteries over their expected lifespan, which is how they prorate.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I don’t understand the ‘keep the generator’ advice given what I’ve already written. The major con is that it is a third engine to maintain and it has no purpose other than to charge batteries.

What’s the hassle with importing batteries? You buy stuff overseas all the time don’t you?

Could only advise based on our own experience. We use our genset for much more than charging batteries: aircon, cooking, hot water, etc. and it's much more efficient for charging batteries than it would be to start our large diesels. If your mileage varies, take the comment for what you paid for it.

Ref importing from overseas: not when it appears it'll cost twice as much as off-the-shelf stuff from within.

-Chris

[a64pilot]

You seem to ask questions and ask opinions, but when they don’t match what you seem you want to hear you get defensive.

In my opinion a built in genset is something that most seem to want, it’s another tool, another source of power for those days that are overcast or you need extra power to make water, wash clothes, make ice and charge batteries to get to 100% SOC. You do that by early morning runs when acceptance is high, but Solar isn’t putting out much yet, you discontinue the generator when there is enough Solar to take over.

It’s tougher to come to the decision to pay for and install a generator, but in your case that is already done.
I’d say keep it until after your cruising for awhile and go through your first winter with shorter days and overcast conditions. Then decide if you want to toss it.
Suitcase generators are great, especially for those that can’t afford or have the room to fit a built in Diesel genset. I’ve had both, have both in fact, and will take the built in any day.
You don’t have to worry about storing it with gasoline down below, it’s not nearly as noisy, and all you have to do to place it into service is push a button.

Yes, I have maximized both my charging from my main engine with a 165 amp alternator and a Balmar 614, I have as much Solar as I can fit with 1000W and an Outback 80, and yet there are times when the generator is nice to have.
My neighbors would rather me run my built in than my Honda too.

[exMaggieDrum]

I've installed lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) batteries recently and am happy with that decision. I did consider all other options two years ago, including Firefly. One of the big issues for me was space and battery configurations. At he the time Firefly only had the one group size and that wouldn't work for my boat without more mods than I wanted to do.

However, I did look into the tech and reputation of their batteries. I had Lifeline AGMs on my previous boat and they lasted over 10 years which is pretty good. But I babied them the whole time I had the boat and the current owner must have as well. That meant bringing them up to a full charge on a regular basis, such as weekly. For boats that spend most of their time on dock this is usually not a problem for recreational sailors but is a real issue for cruisers as available charge sources are a limiting factor.

I did not have a built-in genset and did use my great Honda suitcase gen but it was a supplement. I had really good solar but all this was still not enough to do the full charge for the AGMs. I used the main engine and its large alternator to do this. We really motorsailed a lot and ran the motor at anchor much more than most. Most sailors do not want to do this. So the batteries sulfate and die, sometimes in two-three years, which makes the option not cost-effective compared to wet cells.

AGMs need a long charge time to get to full, much more than just pushing them up to the end of a "regular" charge where most people shut off their engines or gensets to save fuel, noise, and heat.

So the reason I say all this is that to my understanding and remembrance, which may be wrong, is that carbon-foam batteries will charge very fast just like lithiums but they still need to get to that long time charge to get to maximum just like AGMs. Like I say this may be incorrect info but that is what I remember. If true, you get a great benefit in one sense but you still have long charge times with a powerful charge source to keep them alive long enough to justify the extra cost.

They have added the tall L group batteries but that would not have worked for me either but if you can you can pack in a lot of capacity that way with fewer batteries.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Any experience with the India-built Fireflies regarding quality relative to the US-built ones?

I believe all manufacturing is from India now, but the official distribution network here is **fantastic**, that to me compensates for any teething problems.

Without a local distributor, you are SOL on warranty.

But then your delivered price is lower than in the US, so unless you go for packaged Victron LFP, probably the way to go.

IF you are unavoidably PSOC abusing your bank. Is that indeed the case.

Try to get to 100% Full (as per endAmps) as often as possible and do the "capacity restore" cycle whenever you've been PSOCing them.

[Training Wheels]

Firefly recommends fully charging their batteries only once every 30 days.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Firefly recommends fully charging their batteries only once every 30 days.

Much better than weekly!