Flinsail: a cool new way to do solar

[Jim Cate]

Blu, thanks for a thoughtful post. And I agree that our boat is not a prime candidate for the Flinsail, although we could use more solar energy. Our 400 watts isn't capable of keeping up in the winter months down here at 43 South, so I would welcome a good scheme for adding panels. However, this does not fit that description IMO, primarily due to the frequent strong winds we experience. If one had to strike the array every time one left the boat for fear of damaging winds, well, that is a no-goer for me (and we've had gusts over 50 knots three times in the last two weeks, here in a somewhat protected marina).

Your point that smaller vessels can't support big horizontal arrays is true, and the Flinsail does address that problem, should a smaller boat have big energy requirements. But the inability to deploy whilst sailing with full sail is a crippling problem IMO... depends upon how the boat is used. Many cruising boats mount panels on the life lines and find that a good way to add solar area. We might well do so in the future ourselves. Of course, such
panels are a bit exposed and could be damaged in severe wx, but would add power at anchor and under way in most conditions.
And NaMara, I agree that the Baltic boat you posted would have a hard time mounting 600 W of solar in some manner other than the Flinsail... but why would a small inshore day sailor/racer with apparently no significant living space below decks NEED that power?

Finally, I did not mean to disparage the innovators of the Flinsail when I asked about warranty conditions. No doubt they are clever engineers with the intention of providing a useful product to the sailing world. But their product is very expensive, is a considerable departure from the normal usage, and employs a methodology (flex panels) that has a spotty track record in current usage. I would want some assurance that if the product fails I would have some recourse for recovery. Most products of this sort do provide some such assurance... whether it is honored or not seems to vary!

I'm not against innovation nor startups and welcome Flinsail and all other innovators to the sailing world... but I would be reluctant to invest 5000+ euros with them just now.

Jim

[Na Mara]

Start ups like Flinsail need ambassadors for their product. People who believe in the idea, have the financial resources to take a slight risk on the early versions of the product, and who can spread its gospel to the wider community.

I believe in the idea. All sailing boats have masts. Nearly all sailing boats need battery chargers that work away from the dock. Any product that makes the former into the latter has to have legs.

I have the financial wear-withal to take a punt on this product. I’m going to have a hydro generator for charging underway and a big battery bank. Mostly, I’ll live off the battery between sails but occasionally I will need power at rest. Shore power, the Flinsail plus a small bolt on panel for trickle charging, seem to fit the bill nicely together.

I’m quite happy to show this off around where I sail. It will be a talking point, and as I said earlier there are lots of Nordic sailers crying out for a way to charge batteries with very limited deck space. Many of them are presently resorting to fuel cells. This gives them another, cheaper, option.

I’ve changed my mind. Blu has inspired me. This company deserves to survive and thrive. I’m getting one.

P.s. the Flinsail starts at around 2000€ for a 200W two panel version. There are 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600W versions with prices ranging accordingly. I agree that a small cabin ccruiser weekender probably doesnt need 600W but 200-300W would be very useful.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Well, that "junk" is a possible solution to a problem you don't have. On your boat an arch looks reasonably well-balanced and, I suppose, covers your electric needs. On some boats a well designed arch looks even fantastic, a bit like a Porsche rear spoiler.



But I don't see how e.g. AKA-None could produce on the small C&C 27 Mk III an amount of 600 W of electricity? On the Sirius35/Flinsail video (youtube.com / watch?v=MTP6js-dtDU at about 3:19) one sees a (nice) arch but they need more electricity. How else could they produce this?

I don’t have that much on my little boat and what I did have is only on during winter storage at this point.

But if the choice were mine I’d incorporate solar with the Bimini which is what I’m looking at doing

[250224]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

You know what Blu, I found your last post kind of inspiring.

Hi Na Mara, many thanks for your friendly remarks, makes me happy to hear! And, btw, the skärgårdskryssare photo is really nice to look at ...I hope that one day I'll see such beautiful boats in reality (quite likely ).

I will be very interested in your future experience with this Flinsails! Hopefully good!!

For me there is some time until something has to be done. Other than buying a "finished Flinsail-set" (which is a possibility), I'm contemplating to "just" buy ~ten high-quality non-rigid panels which could be setup in different ways: 1) as Jim mentioned on the life lines, this would also work when underway - I've seen such Vendee Globee videos, 2) a smaller number of panels could go on the Bimini, as AKA-none mentioned, when it is installed and 3) if more energy is needed and wind conditions allow something like a "DIY Flinsail production unit". These options would be in addition to ~200 W permanently installed panels.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

The Flinsail came up in my thread on wind and solar. The company just got back to me with a quote (5000€) for their 600W system. So as this is a real product you can buy and as it’s such a clever idea I figured it deserved its own thread.



https://flin-solar.com/flinsail

I for one am struggling to come up with a reason not to go this route for my power needs on the hook.

I can think of 5000 reasons. - PLUS.......

5000? How much diesel can I buy for that?

We have 660 watts MPPT installed including the arch for about $1000.00 US

I don’t have to store or hoist it or worry about damage.

Mine works with sails up, under way.

Photo - a good day in the Caribbean with the output exceeding the nameplate.

[catalystcat]

This is actually a very clever approach, though that's only part of the analysis. At its base is a Roman shade/louver deployment of solar panels. Those kinds of structures have been made reliable and designed to simply collapse for efficient storage for years. Of course, that's only the start.

Just because some have been made that way for some applications, it doesn't mean one can wave a wand and make a reliable, easily deployed, electrically efficient, conveniently implemented solar array.

It COULD be implemented in a way that can be deployed easily, adjusted for windage and solar incidence angle and a bunch of other stuff. And, it COULD be implemented in a way that doesn't intrude too much into the rig and its use. It all depends on how well-considered the design is.


To start, I think a lot depends on comfortable you are with being an early adopter and dealing with the refinement level of the initial product. As with all initial versions, there are likely to be a lot of issues to resolve and, if the design actually survives, a lot of refinement.

Here's one simple example. Wind impacts are something to consider carefully. I once worked on a project to refine solar field implementations and one of the company's key design considerations was how do deal with wind effects, especially gusts/bursts of wind. In your case, if one can implement a simple release mechanism that lets the panel array pivot (probably around its own axis and around the mast axis) in response to winds nearing some safety limit, you can mitigate. (essentially converting the entire array to a large tail like on your wind vane). But, that's money, complexity, and maybe even re-engineering.

Similarly, the continuous flexing (flapping) of the panels could wear them out. But, this might be mitigated by pre-stressed stiffeners (like a hiking tent). Once again. this is cost, complexity, one more thing to fail, etc. So, one COULD reduce the issue, but it ain't free.

As for cost, generally early adopters just pay it. As others have noted, the actual components are way less than 5000Eu. But, small volume manufacture in tax unfriendly jurisdictions with higher labor costs and without supply chain leverage of big volume purchases just costs more.

In the startup world that's called starting by selling to a more vertical market.
Your idea of being a rep might be a good way to offset the early adopter cost for yourself.

At the end of the day, a lot depends as well on your perception of the company and the quality of the product as well as your own risk tolerance.
Is the company funded and run well enough to survive? If not, you are going to be stuck with a white elephant of a solar rig.
Is the design well-considered and engineered?

BTW - Unlike screwed down rigid panels, this array could be deployed in a way that allows it to follow the sun a bit. Angle of incidence can be controlled by the cables, just like a window louver. Perhaps even rotating around the mast. Once again, that's a tradeoff in cost, complexity, and engineering ingenuity.

[bfloyd4445]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

The Flinsail came up in my thread on wind and solar. The company just got back to me with a quote (5000€) for their 600W system. So as this is a real product you can buy and as it’s such a clever idea I figured it deserved its own thread.



https://flin-solar.com/flinsail

I for one am struggling to come up with a reason not to go this route for my power needs on the hook.

600w isn't much and seems very expensive. Here is a conventional system at caostco which outputs 1800 watts ac for comparison.

https://www.costco.com/grape-solar-6...100696623.html

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

The Flinsail came up in my thread on wind and solar. The company just got back to me with a quote (5000€) for their 600W system. So as this is a real product you can buy and as it’s such a clever idea I figured it deserved its own thread.



https://flin-solar.com/flinsail

I for one am struggling to come up with a reason not to go this route for my power needs on the hook.

Na Mara, these panels have significant issues, IMO. We got semi-rigid panels & found they were worthless after a year or so. These Flinsails, mounted so close to the mast, will be shaded by the mast & spreaders much of the day, & even a bit of shading will shut a panel down entirely. Tiltable panels will collect more sunlight, but it's a pain to have to adjust them all the time.

Your photo shows them on a tiny boat. I'll grant that, for a tiny boat with very limited options, it might be worth it to pay such an exorbitant premium for panels.

But for your 43' boat, I'd think that an arch with some good rigid panels would work better & probably be cheaper in the long run. Good monocrystalline rigid guaranteed panels (12 years parts & materials, 30 years performance) are going for $0.50/W, or $300 for your 600W array. Yes, you need MPPTs & wiring & the arch itself if you don't already have one. If you want a fully installed system in a developed country, that might cost quite a lot, but most folks will be able to install their wiring & MPPTs themselves.

And fixed panels don't need to be stored somewhere when you want to go sailing.

An interesting concept, & thanks for bringing it to our attention, but I think it's more suitable for tiny boats than for what most folks go cruising in.

[bfloyd4445]

good advice

[Tonali99]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

The Flinsail came up in my thread on wind and solar. The company just got back to me with a quote (5000€) for their 600W system. So as this is a real product you can buy and as it’s such a clever idea I figured it deserved its own thread.



https://flin-solar.com/flinsail

I for one am struggling to come up with a reason not to go this route for my power needs on the hook.

Why struggle? The photo is obviously misleading as the boat is seemingly moving along under 'sail' with propeller wash astern.

[Kolchac]

It is such a stupid idea!!
1. If you sail, let's say for 1 - 3 days, drop anchor overnight and continue in the morning, this expensive thing is useless, just takes space in your storage.
2. Who has the pleasure to install 100 pounds mainsail, take it off and install it again many times? I'm sure this stupid system is not simple to install as well.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Start ups like Flinsail need ambassadors for their product. People who believe in the idea, have the financial resources to take a slight risk on the early versions of the product, and who can spread its gospel to the wider community.

........

P.s. the Flinsail starts at around 2000€ for a 200W two panel version. There are 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600W versions with prices ranging accordingly. I agree that a small cabin ccruiser weekender probably doesnt need 600W but 200-300W would be very useful.

This post comes across far more like a salesman (or some other affiliation with the company) than an independent review. Other than appeals to emotion, there is nothing in it to recommend the underlying technology.

PS: for 200w, far simpler to have $200 for a couple 100w panels with controller that can be temporarily mounted on lifelines when at dock or anchor. You still have to mount them but no harder than this rube goldberg system and 1/10th the price.

[bfloyd4445]

Originally Posted by Tonali99

Why struggle? The photo is obviously misleading as the boat is seemingly moving along under 'sail' with propeller wash astern.

I'm not a sailor but one quick look and it was obvious it wasn't going to work under sail.....where do the sails go in the mast is carrying solar panels?

[dangme55]

Looks like a Rube Goldberg of the first order. Just because something can be engineered doesn't mean it should be.

Not sure what the market is for solar in the EU but I just checked on EBay and a 400W system for RV with inverter and controller is $299.00 USD.

So two are around $600 and more power so the other $5,000 USD (converting 5000 Euro) I guess is for the 'cool' look?

Wow - I guess this is the equivalent of Oakley sunglasses? As for me I always buy cheap sunglasses - when I leave them at a bar they always seem to still be there when I get back. LOL

[Icarus]

Looks horrible