Generator or No generator, that is the question

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by john manning

I have been 'live-aboard' both with and without a generator. Once the generator had gone we found there was much less use of things like hot water on tap, washing machine (now gone as well), water maker, and we never had aircon.

The generator was both a cost and a convenience.

A washing machine isn’t just a convenience, that is a lesson we learned after hurricane Ivan. We had the only working satellite telephone, watermaker and washing machine in the bays on Grenada’s south coast and had a long line of cruisers to call home to say they were alive, get some drinking water or wash clothes. Without sanitation in the 3rd world where there is no 911 to call, you’re on the path to disease.

A generator is part of that as well. If you need to be self reliant, you need to have gear like that.

[Rimica]

We have a cat. I think that 1,500 watts of solar is plenty, for us anyway. No air con required at anchor. At the dock yes but then we are on shore power.

[Cynara]

If you can swing it, then get one.

Just use it responsibility

[LostBiker]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A washing machine isn’t just a convenience, that is a lesson we learned after hurricane Ivan. We had the only working satellite telephone, watermaker and washing machine in the bays on Grenada’s south coast and had a long line of cruisers to call home to say they were alive, get some drinking water or wash clothes. Without sanitation in the 3rd world where there is no 911 to call, you’re on the path to disease.

A generator is part of that as well. If you need to be self reliant, you need to have gear like that.

This post convinced the wife and I to keep the washer/drier combo. We have already sold the 1500lb 13.5kw generator in favor of 2-2200i Honda generators. We really havent thought about the disaster part that can come out of nowhere, so thanks for reminding us.


John

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A washing machine isn’t just a convenience, that is a lesson we learned after hurricane Ivan. We had the only working satellite telephone, watermaker and washing machine in the bays on Grenada’s south coast and had a long line of cruisers to call home to say they were alive, get some drinking water or wash clothes. Without sanitation in the 3rd world where there is no 911 to call, you’re on the path to disease.

A generator is part of that as well. If you need to be self reliant, you need to have gear like that.

Self reliance is important, but all the equipment you mention can be successfully run from solar and/or other alternative energy sources. A generator is not needed.

If a generator is needed to run these appliances, I would suggest that the self reliance is reduced, not enhanced. Generators need fuel, spare parts and occasionally skilled technical help to keep them running. These assets are likely to be hard to find in the emergency situations you are referring too. In addition, the fundamental reliability of a generator is significantly lower than rigid solar panels that have no moving or wearing parts.

[chrisr]

but isn't the best of all worlds to have solar AND a generator (and wind gennie as well) ?

this is our situation, and it's really comforting to know that no matter how long the calm and solid overcast lasts, we can - if needed - push a button and charge the batteries

as you say, any equipment is liable to fail so the more back-ups & alternatives you have, the better...

cheers,

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by chrisr

but isn't the best of all worlds to have solar AND a generator (and wind gennie as well) ?

this is our situation, and it's really comforting to know that no matter how long the calm and solid overcast lasts, we can - if needed - push a button and charge the batteries

as you say, any equipment is liable to fail so the more back-ups & alternatives you have, the better...

cheers,

I agree it is important to have systems that can provide enough electrical power.

This is achievable without a generator.

If this can be done (and it is not feasible for all vessels) then there is no reason to install a marine diesel generator. A small inexpensive petrol generator is a possible option but there are alternatives such as high powered alternators if you are concerned that alternative energy generation may be inadequate.

Redundant systems are always worth considering to cover unexpected malfunctions, but rigid solar panels are very reliable especially with multiple controllers where each panel is effectively a separate system.

If they are only fitted for redundancy, marine diesel generators are a poor choice in my view. They need to run periodically to remain operational. They require a similar amount of maintenance and repair even when only used occasionally and the initial cost and lost space and extra weight is still a significant penalty.

If you do want to install a diesel marine generator I think you are better to design your your electrical system around this equipment. This means equipment choices that are fundamentally different from a boat relying on alternative energy.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A washing machine isn’t just a convenience, that is a lesson we learned after hurricane Ivan. We had the only working satellite telephone, watermaker and washing machine

True, because a washing machine is as important as drinking water and has been around since the dawn of time. I maybe non-human to survive years without using any machine to wash clothes.

A generator is part of that as well. If you need to be self reliant, you need to have gear like that.

It is optional. By generator I assume you mean wind generator.

Most commercial models are toys that don't really fit the common need. A more useful design is raised at anchor (95-99% of the time boat is not underway), by the halyard, and has a large diameter, 8ft, 10ft, even 12ft diameter. At 15 knots of wind, such a turbine produces 400 watts, yet is stored out of the way on passages or storms to avoid any danger. This becomes a significant source of power when coupled with solar panels.

[Attitude1]

How much power do you need? How much does it cost to produce it? How much does it weigh?

A Marine Diesel Generator, such as a 20,000 Watt Kohler 20EKOZD costs
$14,100.00 – $16,380.00 and weighs 1050 pounds. Furthermore one must carry the fuel to operate it.

Lithium Batteries such as “Battleborn” cost $1000.00 per 1000 wh and weigh about 29 pounds per 1000 wh. 36 of them would weigh about as much as the Koehler but they would cost $36,000. Wow!

A Solar Generator such as “Ecoflow Max” costs $1899 for 2400 wh, produces 5000 w surge power, and weighs 49 pounds. A good marine alternator or two can charge a solar generator quite easily in a few hours. Enough Solar generators and you can operate anything cheaply.

Commercial Glass Matt batteries are coming in the next five years. Tesla believes the glass matt battery pack their working on will give their vehicles a thousand miles of range before recharging.

Maybe we all should wait?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

. By generator I assume you mean wind generator.
.

Pfft, diesel baby, wonderful diesel
Great stuff, burn it up.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I agree it is important to have systems that can provide enough electrical power.

This is achievable without a generator.

.

On boats that don't have much in the way of power usage yes
On others not really
Even with 2500watts of solar we'd be rooted without a diesel Genset.
And we don't have aircon, nor do we have electric galley

Clouds , rain and night time

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

A washing machine isn’t just a convenience, that is a lesson we learned after hurricane Ivan. We had the only working satellite telephone, watermaker and washing machine in the bays on Grenada’s south coast and had a long line of cruisers to call home to say they were alive, get some drinking water or wash clothes. Without sanitation in the 3rd world where there is no 911 to call, you’re on the path to disease.

A generator is part of that as well. If you need to be self reliant, you need to have gear like that.

There are people who need or desire to be self reliant. I get that, I truely do. They will prefer to have an entirely self sustaining system of equipment and protocalls on their boats so that they are independant from anyone and anything. Whatever they night need, they will carry it with them. They get comfort from knowing that they are prepared (just push a button). I have no problem with that.

There are people who build that kind of independance in a cabin in the mountains. I have no problem with that either.

In fact, at one time when I had some reasonable fear that nuclear war might be started (axis of evil talk and all that) I made plans. Where I would go (in a boat) what tools, seeds and medicines I'd take, how I'd survive on potatoes, blackberries, and fish. For me it was a bit of a fantasy. But not very realisitic.

Now days, however, I am not a survivalist.

I have become a sailor, not a prepper.

What is important to me is the sailing, not how perfect are my preperations for the "What If". It's not that I don't think about the "What If". It's just that I don't feel the need to be able to maintain a normal lifestyle on board no matter what happens. I do have a plan for three days of no sunshine (180 days, actually) but it does not include a genset (it is the alternator on my main engine). And I have a plan B for what I'd do if plan A fails. (It involves sailing to a port where stuff can be fixed.) My plan B is not perfect, I am sure anyone can point out the flaws, but it will get me through.

And I don't have a washer or dryer. My watermaker is small. My solar panels are not too big. My fridge and freezer are tiny. My boat is actually very simple. I like it that way. I don't mind complicated toys, but I want the important stuff simple.

All of this brings me to my main point, frequently expressed on this forum.

Sailing, the ability to sail well, fast, comfortably, and safely in basically any weather, in a smallish, light boat which my wife and I can handle, is far more important than having a genset, washer, huge water maker or all the other stuff, which most certainly requires a bigger, heavier, less agile vessel which could be so much more difficult to handle that we might rarely feel like going out, or be unable to by ourselves. That would defeat the purpose of it all for us.

My comfort is moving, being agile, and having the independence of mobility, not the independance of having a fortress, a private island, equipped to handle every possibility.

But each of us to our own. It's all good.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wingssail

There are people who need or desire to be self reliant. I get that, I truely do. They will prefer to have an entirely self sustaining system of equipment and protocalls on their boats so that they are independant from anyone and anything. Whatever they night need, they will carry it with them. They get comfort from knowing that they are prepared (just push a button). I have no problem with that.

There are people who build that kind of independance in a cabin in the mountains. I have no problem with that either.

In fact, at one time when I had some reasonable fear that nuclear war might be started (axis of evil talk and all that) I made plans. Where I would go (in a boat) what tools, seeds and medicines I'd take, how I'd survive on potatoes, blackberries, and fish. For me it was a bit of a fantasy. But not very realisitic.

Now days, however, I am not a survivalist.

I have become a sailor, not a prepper.

What is important to me is the sailing, not how perfect are my preperations for the "What If". It's not that I don't think about the "What If". It's just that I don't feel the need to be able to maintain a normal lifestyle on board no matter what happens. I do have a plan for three days of no sunshine (180 days, actually) but it does not include a genset (it is the alternator on my main engine). And I have a plan B for what I'd do if plan A fails. (It involves sailing to a port where stuff can be fixed.) My plan B is not perfect, I am sure anyone can point out the flaws, but it will get me through.

And I don't have a washer or dryer. My watermaker is small. My solar panels are not too big. My fridge and freezer are tiny. My boat is actually very simple. I like it that way. I don't mind complicated toys, but I want the important stuff simple.

All of this brings me to my main point, frequently expressed on this forum.

Sailing, the ability to sail well, fast, comfortably, and safely in basically any weather, in a smallish, light boat which my wife and I can handle, is far more important than having a genset, washer, huge water maker or all the other stuff, which most certainly requires a bigger, heavier, less agile vessel which could be so much more difficult to handle that we might rarely feel like going out, or be unable to by ourselves. That would defeat the purpose of it all for us.

My comfort is moving, being agile, and having the independence of mobility, not the independance of having a fortress, a private island, equipped to handle every possibility.

But each of us to our own. It's all good.

Yet the emergencies happen and while you may be able to take care of yourself (a small watermaker still makes water and you can do laundry by hand), you would not be in a good position to aid others with the systems you have aboard because you would need all the fresh water yourself and may be not have means of communication with family at all.

We outfit our boat with helping others in mind. We don’t need 40gph fresh water; we have very little laundry and hardly ever need something from our medical supplies. We’re happy that we can afford to help others in need and those experiences we use to be better prepared ourselves as well.

In my view all offshore sailors should be preppers and besides racers and spectacle seekers they have always been. Prepare for the worst is doctrine from every book on the subject

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yet the emergencies happen and while you may be able to take care of yourself (a small watermaker still makes water and you can do laundry by hand), you would not be in a good position to aid others with the systems you have aboard because you would need all the fresh water yourself and may be not have means of communication with family at all.

We outfit our boat with helping others in mind. We don’t need 40gph fresh water; we have very little laundry and hardly ever need something from our medical supplies. We’re happy that we can afford to help others in need and those experiences we use to be better prepared ourselves as well.

In my view all offshore sailors should be preppers and besides racers and spectacle seekers they have always been. Prepare for the worst is doctrine from every book on the subject :thumb:

Only on your absolutist reading.
Middle of the road preparation is far more reasonable, practical and common for long distance cruisers, than going to the extreme by saying a washing machine is a safety item.
Wingsails approach matches much more closely to those actually cruising the world.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Only on your absolutist reading.
Middle of the road preparation is far more reasonable, practical and common for long distance cruisers, than going to the extreme by saying a washing machine is a safety item.
Wingsails approach matches much more closely to those actually cruising the world.

When I call a washing machine a safety item, it is in the context of a natural disaster area like we experienced and also vs others calling it a luxury item. I guess the magnitude of it only becomes clear after experiencing it.

I actually think Wingsails is better prepared than average because we find more boats without watermaker than with.