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FlyingCloud1937 · 26-01-2012, 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cal40john

I'm confused, Carling designed an 18 amp breaker designed for push on connectors that you can only get in 6 or 10 amp ratings? Or there are some that are nominally rated at 18 amps that you're not supposed to use at that current because it will fail? I know I'm missing something here.

How come there's no smiley character that is spinning?

John

Nominal...is not the same as de-rated to meet code/society regulations.

In other words, the breaker trips out at 18, but that does not mean that it can service an 18 amp load,at the expected rate.

Funny how things work...right?

What's worse, is we pay for a product, then we find that the manufacture has realized the error of their way, completed a re-design, all in 18 months...and we paid the R&D.

Lloyd

**s/v Jedi** · 26-01-2012, 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Considering that at 230 volt, that connector at the rated voltage will need to support potentially 3680 watts heat dispation...ie 230 v X 16 amps? 24-7

Ah now I remember you again... about the Victron battery charger where you were wrong and I was right. I suppose you're just trying to "get back" at me here. I have a whole horde of followers like you, there is no need for more really.

You are no electrical engineer Loyd. A statement like above clearly shows that. Your knowledge lacks the very basic principles of electric engineering, and you showed before to just keep repeating wrong information. You are also the type to simply ignore facts brought forward against your statements, which really kills any possibility of useful discusion. I am not going to repeat that game with you, find somebody else to play with please.

For other readers: when you have an 18A breaker, there is no need to de-rate them to a lower value; that is not even possible; it is just silly talk. Also, a jumper like I propose in this thread does not dissipate the power that flows through it 24-7 like stated. That is nonsense. Power dissipated by a jumper is related to the resistance of the jumper, which is pretty close to 0 if crimped well. P = I^2 x R = 16^2 x 0 = 0 Watts.

Also, many if not all of these products, incl. this Victron IT use these disconnect terminals everywhere and they are all approved and I have never found a failure with any. The problems as described by Loyd are caused by bad crimps. You only get good results when using a good ratcheting crimper with good quality terminals and wire.

ciao!
Nick.

fairbank56 · 26-01-2012, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Also, a jumper like I propose in this thread does not dissipate the power that flows through it 24-7 like stated. That is nonsense. Power dissipated by a jumper is related to the resistance of the jumper, which is pretty close to 0 if crimped well. P = I^2 x R = 16^2 x 0 = 0 Watts.

Correct! Might I suggest that rather than use the jumpers or bending the tabs together and solder, just wrap a couple turns of 16 gauge solid wire around the tabs and solder.

Eric

goboatingnow · 26-01-2012, 11:33

Quote:

Considering that at 230 volt, that connector at the rated voltage will need to support potentially 3680 watts heat dispation...ie 230 v X 16 amps? 24-7

Don't you just love the Internet, when this stuff gets trotted out. !!!

Dave

DeepFrz · 26-01-2012, 11:52

The Jedi warrior delivers a mighty blow...

Maine Sail · 26-01-2012, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Don't you just love the Internet, when this stuff gets trotted out. !!!

Dave

Always entertaining...

**s/v Jedi** · 26-01-2012, 12:24

That woke up the real engineers here on CF... almost all are in the thread now, hoping for more

ciao!
Nick.

goboatingnow · 26-01-2012, 12:31

Well nick sent out the call, confuser demons about. !! I have my fluke 87 at the ready , very sharp probes too.

**s/v Jedi** · 26-01-2012, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Well nick sent out the call, confuser demons about. !! I have my fluke 87 at the ready , very sharp probes too.

Ah... but my light saber is so fast that you will need a recording scope with a bandwidth of at least 100 MHz

ciao!
Nick.

mrm · 26-01-2012, 14:11

Reporting

on the ready with a scope. It has veeery cold contacts...

(for reference: this UserFriendly Strip Comments and this UserFriendly Strip Comments )

I would have probably used a piece of a copper strap - 0.7mm thick and 6mm wide - and a soldering iron instead of those connectors, but only because it is easier for me to come with a strong soldering iron than with a quality crimp tool. This may be the case for most folks out there in the field.

Greetings,
Marius

colemj · 26-01-2012, 15:00

Another UF junkie!!! Man I miss new ones, but still look at the old ones every day. Never get bored of them.

Mark

**s/v Jedi** · 26-01-2012, 19:41

It's a tough deal I got when I was living in 230V country and buying a 110V boat. I left my old trusted Weller soldering station behind and miss it dearly. I refuse to buy a 110V model because it'll never be the same haha

ciao!
Nick.

FlyingCloud1937 · 26-01-2012, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Ah now I remember you again... about the Victron battery charger where you were wrong and I was right. I suppose you're just trying to "get back" at me here. I have a whole horde of followers like you, there is no need for more really.

You are no electrical engineer Loyd. A statement like above clearly shows that. Your knowledge lacks the very basic principles of electric engineering, and you showed before to just keep repeating wrong information. You are also the type to simply ignore facts brought forward against your statements, which really kills any possibility of useful discusion. I am not going to repeat that game with you, find somebody else to play with please.

For other readers: when you have an 18A breaker, there is no need to de-rate them to a lower value; that is not even possible; it is just silly talk. Also, a jumper like I propose in this thread does not dissipate the power that flows through it 24-7 like stated. That is nonsense. Power dissipated by a jumper is related to the resistance of the jumper, which is pretty close to 0 if crimped well. P = I^2 x R = 16^2 x 0 = 0 Watts.

Also, many if not all of these products, incl. this Victron IT use these disconnect terminals everywhere and they are all approved and I have never found a failure with any. The problems as described by Loyd are caused by bad crimps. You only get good results when using a good ratcheting crimper with good quality terminals and wire.

ciao!
Nick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Ah now I remember you again... about the Victron battery charger where you were wrong and I was right. I suppose you're just trying to "get back" at me here. I have a whole horde of followers like you, there is no need for more really.

Now lets see on post 52 of that topic I was the first to raise the question of the charger getting hot. Long before you or anyone else suggested heat as an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Hi John,

Sounds like something is getting hot.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...g-73333-4.html

Lloyd

Nick, I have no bones to pick with you, other then you don’t actually read what I write, and then interject what you thought I said.

Quote:

You are no electrical engineer Loyd. A statement like above clearly shows that. Your knowledge lacks the very basic principles of electric engineering, and you showed before to just keep repeating wrong information. You are also the type to simply ignore facts brought forward against your statements, which really kills any possibility of useful discusion. I am not going to repeat that game with you, find somebody else to play with please.

You’re right, I’m not an EE, I’m just a marine electrician who in the last 30 years has installed hundreds of mile of cables, crimped 10’s of thousands of terminals and installed just about every known piece of electrical related gear, by just about every manufacture.

Wrong, what did I say….? Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937
Considering that at 230 volt, that connector at the rated voltage will need to support potentially 3680 watts heat dispation...ie 230 v X 16 amps? 24-7

Potential is just that, I did not say that the connector would dissipate that wattage. You are correct in the equation, so I don’t dispute that. Here in Seattle we’ve had 10 major marina fires that have created losses in the 100’s of millions, each and every one of those was electrical related.

Quote:

For other readers: when you have an 18A breaker, there is no need to de-rate them to a lower value; that is not even possible; it is just silly talk. Also, a jumper like I propose in this thread does not dissipate the power that flows through it 24-7 like stated. That is nonsense. Power dissipated by a jumper is related to the resistance of the jumper, which is pretty close to 0 if crimped well. P = I^2 x R = 16^2 x 0 = 0 Watts.

Wrong, the subject breaker that I posted the pictures 18 amp rating was in fact subject to a de-rating factor both by the manufacture and the UL rating. An independent lab as well as Carling Tech, both came to the same conclusion.

After both tested the breakers and the cables in the picture. These tests dismantled the breaker as well as sectioned the crimp. The crimp was sectioned and determined proper, the bi-metal portion of the breaker showed no sign of fault, as well as the internal contacts all showed no signs of resistance. The final conclusion by both independently was the resistance in the spade quick connect was where the heat was generated.

Next thermal breakers used as those used by Tolly and in the Victron are known as Thermal Equipment Protection Breakers, and only meet UL spec when the upstream branch circuit is also protected by a UL rated magnetic breaker. They are subject to a duty factor and de-rate based on resistive loading.

Quote:

Also, many if not all of these products, incl. this Victron IT use these disconnect terminals everywhere and they are all approved and I have never found a failure with any. The problems as described by Loyd are caused by bad crimps. You only get good results when using a good ratcheting crimper with good quality terminals and wire.

ciao!
Nick.

Funny thing is you say the crimp is at fault, yet the quick disconnect imparts less pressure at the interface then most averagely preformed crimps do.

Well Nick, your solution may well be ok, I don’t know. This is what I do know, all of the Anchor, and other Marine quick disconnects are rated at 105c. I also know from speaking with Carling Tech direct that they spec the hi-temp terminals (250F) when their Thermal Equipment Breakers are used in resistive loads, and are subject to de-rating.

Now based on reading this from the Victron manual for the IT, the breakers used are in fact Thermal breakers.

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/...r1800-3600.pdf page 8

3. Operation
3.1. Thermal circuit breaker
The isolation transformer is fitted with an automatic circuit
breaker. This circuit breaker will switch off the isolation
transformer in case of overload or short-circuit.
3.2. Temperature protection
The isolation transformer is fan cooled. The fan rpm is
temperature controlled.
The isolation transformer will switch off in case of overheating.
3.3. Inrush current limiter
The inrush current limiter prevents upstream circuit breakers or
fuses from tripping when switching on the isolation transformer.

I have emailed my rep from Victron , and posed the following questions.

Does the tripping breaker represent a potential fault in the IT?
Is there a history of issue where the breaker is faulting, when there is no actual fault? Meaning is there a history of these breakers failing or does it actually indicate a resistance fault in the unit.
Would it invalidate the warranty, or the UL rating to use the jumper as demonstrated?
Are replacement Breakers available?
Does Victron have a jumper by-pass available to the Public?
What are the temp rating of the quick connects used in the stock Victron cables used on the front of the board where quick connects are used?

Nick,

I have a question for you, the jumpers bypass the Thermal Breaker, now is this unit protected from Thermal failure? I know Victron has done away with the Thermal Breakers on the new units. But was that the only design change. Will your mod. Create a safe mod.?

I’m more then happy to eat crow when I prepared it for my self. I’m not an EE. But I do have some experience so when I have a question, I will follow it to my resolve. Don’t be offended if I don’t take your word as gospel.

Lloyd

**s/v Jedi** · 26-01-2012, 21:08

Read my post Loyd, 80% of what you ask me is already written there. Go ahead and check with Victron because I am the kind of guy who makes up these things and then do this mod just for fun and post it with pictures etc.

But as you install so much of this stuff, you must have noticed that all the current units don't have these breakers installed anymore?!

And yes, jumpers have the potential to dissipate 100% of the power flow 24-7. And 18A breakers are de-rated to 6A.

And OMG... you really think thermal breakers are for thermal protection?!

Oh and that you need high-temp terminals for use on thermal breakers?! I see.

Crimping force on disconnects is less than the crimp of the cable at the terminal. Sure but what is your point? An AC plug in an outlet has zero crimping force so how much does that become de-rated?

cheers,
Nick.