Help needed interpreting a wiring diagram.

[GILow]

Hi all,

Attached Is a photo of the wiring schematic for my windlass.

Currently the windlass is wired for single direction use only, (up) but I’d like to wire it for up and down. I’ve bought a neat little remote control kit with a polarity switching solenoid which I hope to use.

I assumed I would simply insert the solenoid in place of the existing on/off solenoid, but this schematic seems to suggest it is going to be more complicated than that.

Currently the windlass motor has the positive feed going to F1 and has a heavy duty jumper cable between F2 and A1. Negative is connected to the body of the winch, A2 in this schematic,

I assume F1 and F2 would denote “fields” for forward and reverse, and A1 and A2 would refer to the armature, but I am confused by the fact that A1 and F2 are currently connected to each other.

Also, if the complexity around switching fields and stuff is to gain maximum power in both directions then I am happy to avoid this complexity since I don’t need any power to lower the anchor, just to raise it. Can I simply reverse the polarity using the existing wiring as I had originally planned?

Does anyone have the required dc motor theory to advise me?

[bglad]

Marked up your photo. Up matches how you are currently wired.

[bglad]

Changed the up drawing a bit. Sorry for any confusion.

[dfelsent]

For others who don’t have separate field and armature connections, be aware that not all windlass motors are reversible.
Mine is not, though a reversing option was sold.
Just swapping the polarity may have zero effect on the direction of rotation.

[Jammer]

Hello GILow

The diagrams and post upthread are correct. Perhaps I can help with some theory and answers to your specific questions.

Originally Posted by GILow

Currently the windlass is wired for single direction use only, (up) but I’d like to wire it for up and down. I’ve bought a neat little remote control kit with a polarity switching solenoid which I hope to use.

You will need a different solenoid setup, because polarity switching alone will not change the direction for this type of motor.

We can group DC motors into four types for reversing purposes:

• Permanent magnet, which can be reversed by changing polarity. There are armature connections only.
• Shunt wound, with four terminals. The armature and field connections are in parallel. The motor can be reversed by changing polarity on one but not the other.
• Three terminal series wound. These have an armature (or common) terminal, and two field terminals. Power is applied between the armature and one of the field terminals, and the motor is reversed by instead applying power between the armature and the other field terminal. Internally, there are two separate field windings, one for each direction, which adds cost and weight to the motor compared to the four-terminal series configuration.
• Four terminal series wound. This is what you have. There are two armature terminals, and two field terminals. The armature and the field must be connected in series. The motor is reversed by changing the sequence of the series connection.

Some DC motors have some of these connections made internally and aren't possible to reverse without disassembling and modifying the motor. Such motors usually have only two terminals.

I assumed I would simply insert the solenoid in place of the existing on/off solenoid, but this schematic seems to suggest it is going to be more complicated than that.

Currently the windlass motor has the positive feed going to F1 and has a heavy duty jumper cable between F2 and A1. Negative is connected to the body of the winch, A2 in this schematic,

I assume F1 and F2 would denote “fields” for forward and reverse, and A1 and A2 would refer to the armature, but I am confused by the fact that A1 and F2 are currently connected to each other.

The armature and field are in series. There is only one field (unlike a three-terminal motor). The easiest way to reverse the motor is to flip the two field connections -- connect F1 and A1 together and connect the positive feed to F2. That is what the wiring diagram you have attached shows, and it takes 4 SPST solenoids to do it.


It is possible that your reversing box can be modified to work, because it also takes 4 SPST solenoids to switch polarity. They're just wired differently.

Also, if the complexity around switching fields and stuff is to gain maximum power in both directions then I am happy to avoid this complexity since I don’t need any power to lower the anchor, just to raise it. Can I simply reverse the polarity using the existing wiring as I had originally planned?

The complexity is mainly due to design tradeoffs internal to the motor, not maximum power, and there is no shortcut you can use to simplify the reversing system.

[tkeithlu]

Jammer, thank you for posting that. I'll keep a copy. Now that I've learned something today, I have the rest of the day to be a slug.

[Bucket]

Great reply Jammer!!

[Telemark43]

Originally Posted by GILow

Hi all,

Attached Is a photo of the wiring schematic for my windlass.

Currently the windlass is wired for single direction use only, (up) but I’d like to wire it for up and down. I’ve bought a neat little remote control kit with a polarity switching solenoid which I hope to use.

I assumed I would simply insert the solenoid in place of the existing on/off solenoid, but this schematic seems to suggest it is going to be more complicated than that.

Currently the windlass motor has the positive feed going to F1 and has a heavy duty jumper cable between F2 and A1. Negative is connected to the body of the winch, A2 in this schematic,

I assume F1 and F2 would denote “fields” for forward and reverse, and A1 and A2 would refer to the armature, but I am confused by the fact that A1 and F2 are currently connected to each other.

Also, if the complexity around switching fields and stuff is to gain maximum power in both directions then I am happy to avoid this complexity since I don’t need any power to lower the anchor, just to raise it. Can I simply reverse the polarity using the existing wiring as I had originally planned?

Does anyone have the required dc motor theory to advise me?

Attachment 229388

... and my serious question is simply
Why do you need to motor the anchor down?

[patrick brooks]

my antique windlass uses a ford tractor starter, It would be single direction, but taking it to a motor wind shop makes it work bidirectional, it makes it easy to find a replacement when if it fails, conversion cheaper than rewinding old starter fair winds , easy anchoring, hold against the vale

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Telemark43

... and my serious question is simply
Why do you need to motor the anchor down?

Lots of power boats do this. But it is a slow process and the boat needs to be kept nearly in place until the anchor and some rode is out. Difficult in a windy situation.

What I would want is an electric clutch, remotely controlled from the cockpit so I could just release the anchor and let it free-fall while reversing slowly.

But then I'd be missing the exercise of running back and forth on deck!

[JPA Cate]

... and my serious question is simply
Why do you need to motor the anchor down?

Of course, I cannot answer for Matt, who will be singlehanding, but the reason we like it is that on passages in bigger seas, our chain tends to get hockles in it in the anchor locker. With the power down, it seems to take them out, rather than them hanging up, when trying to just un-clutch it down. In the long run, it is faster, and I don't have to drive around in the pitch dark, in little circles, avoiding unlit boats, while Jim takes off the guide over the chain hole, and free the chain, and replace the guide for an hour between 2 and 3 a.m.

If I had to guess, Matt will trigger it remotely, so he can be at the helm to release the anchor and place the boat where he wants it to be.

Ann

[GILow]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

...

If I had to guess, Matt will trigger it remotely, so he can be at the helm to release the anchor and place the boat where he wants it to be.

Ann

You guessed correctly! Of course.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Hello GILow

The diagrams and post upthread are correct. Perhaps I can help with some theory and answers to your specific questions.



You will need a different solenoid setup, because polarity switching alone will not change the direction for this type of motor.

We can group DC motors into four types for reversing purposes:

• Permanent magnet, which can be reversed by changing polarity. There are armature connections only.
• Shunt wound, with four terminals. The armature and field connections are in parallel. The motor can be reversed by changing polarity on one but not the other.
• Three terminal series wound. These have an armature (or common) terminal, and two field terminals. Power is applied between the armature and one of the field terminals, and the motor is reversed by instead applying power between the armature and the other field terminal. Internally, there are two separate field windings, one for each direction, which adds cost and weight to the motor compared to the four-terminal series configuration.
• Four terminal series wound. This is what you have. There are two armature terminals, and two field terminals. The armature and the field must be connected in series. The motor is reversed by changing the sequence of the series connection.

Some DC motors have some of these connections made internally and aren't possible to reverse without disassembling and modifying the motor. Such motors usually have only two terminals.

The armature and field are in series. There is only one field (unlike a three-terminal motor). The easiest way to reverse the motor is to flip the two field connections -- connect F1 and A1 together and connect the positive feed to F2. That is what the wiring diagram you have attached shows, and it takes 4 SPST solenoids to do it.


It is possible that your reversing box can be modified to work, because it also takes 4 SPST solenoids to switch polarity. They're just wired differently.


The complexity is mainly due to design tradeoffs internal to the motor, not maximum power, and there is no shortcut you can use to simplify the reversing system.

This is pure gold. Seriously. Thank you. I’ll see if my existing solenoid can be adapted and report back.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Lots of power boats do this. But it is a slow process and the boat needs to be kept nearly in place until the anchor and some rode is out. Difficult in a windy situation.

What I would want is an electric clutch, remotely controlled from the cockpit so I could just release the anchor and let it free-fall while reversing slowly.

But then I'd be missing the exercise of running back and forth on deck!

Yes, the clutch idea would be better, but I think, in those situations, I will run forward and release the winch from the clutch. (and get the associated exercise.). But often I anchor in very benign conditions and the ability to just motor (or sail) up to my spot while lowering the anchor from the cockpit will be practical.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by bglad

Changed the up drawing a bit. Sorry for any confusion.

Confusion?! Those mark-ups are brilliant. I would never have figured that was the electrical path in a million years. So darn counter intuitive.

But viewed in conjunction with Jammer’s post I am NEARLY at a point of understanding. Thank you.