Honda 2000 to inverter-charger ...

[skipgundlach]

Well...

I'm hopeful that I can, soon, post a followup/conclusion to my Battery Woes series.

However, one of the things which has seemed to be universal in analysis by folks who should know is that I was chronically undercharging my batteries. Whether or not there was a bad battery in the bank, or a pair, will never be known, but I have my suspicions based on our new bank (which will be discussed in the conclusion of that series).

Back to the question at hand, however. I currently have a Xantrex 1500/70A inverter/charger which appears as though it might be on its last legs.

I also have a 'shore charger' Xantrex TruePower 40 which, together with the other, overwhelms my Honda if I try to run both at the same time. We've been using both here at the dock without issue in our deep/fast discharge and 'fast' recovery (a true net charge of ~90-A at bulk) during our conditioning phase of our new, 4-Trojan L16H-AC bank (870AH).

However, when we leave this expensive dock, we'll be back on Honda 'shore power' - at its limitation of about 1600W/120VAC.

Our inverter use is pretty minimal; normally, if we're running the little stinger shop-type vac, or the heat gun, or the laser printer (which WON'T run on the Honda) it's a fair bet that we might also be running the Honda. However, for very short periods, it's handy to have that inverter which can (at least for the moment) handle that load.

So, with the target of having the most charging amps possible and still have the Honda handle the load, in a 3-stage, setpoint-adjustable to meet the battery maker charging specs, with (guessing) at least a 1500W inverter, what should I be looking at?

Please limit the discussion to the specific question - that of an inverter-charger (or maybe separate units) which won't overload the Honda 2000 yet deliver the most charging amps. We've maxed out our solar and wind potentials (new panels, in fact, arriving tomorrow morning, doubling our previous wattage), and have minimized our power consumption with energy efficient 'stuff' so there's little room for improvement other than getting more amps back into the battery as quickly as possible so those other can float them full.

Thanks!

L8R

Skip

[john61ct]

The Victron units are spendy, but you can set the maximum "shore amps" to pull as appropriate, and within that constraint, all current not required by your variable consumer loads gets pumped into your banks, set it and forget it.

Higher-end units even supplement shore with bank amps if required, then when demand subsides, go back to putting them back in again.

Mastervolt, Redarc may well be others I'm sure.

And when that little Honda gives up the ghost, maybe step up a bit. . .

[smac999]

the better ones will be able to set the shore power size availible. probably only set at 10a on that honda. you'll probably only get 40-50a of charging total. about what you have now from your 40a charger.

IE the magnum and victron are set to 10a shore cord at the control panel. when back at the dock you'd change it back to 30a for full charging.

[Laughing Buddha]

I seem to recall the Honda 2000s can be "dasiy-chained." Maybe buy a second "sea-going" shore power service? Double your pleasure, and keep the inverter charger you have.

Cheers - Jim

[epiic]

My Victron MultiPlus 3000/120 (3000w/120a) inverter/charger does not overload my Yamaha 2000w generator.

[smac999]

Originally Posted by epiic

My Victron MultiPlus 3000/120 (3000w/120a) inverter/charger does not overload my Yamaha 2000w generator.

Then your power is set lower. A 120a charger will draw 20a. Your gen is probably max 12a

[skipgundlach]

Thanks for all the initial responses.

We won't be buying a bigger, or in-boat genset; we took out the one which came with the boat - it's where the battery bank is now.


Now, on to the suggestions' questions generated (pardon the expression):

Originally Posted by john61ct

The Victron units are spendy, but you can set the maximum "shore amps" to pull as appropriate, and within that constraint, all current not required by your variable consumer loads gets pumped into your banks, set it and forget it.

(clip)

Mastervolt, Redarc may well be others I'm sure.

(clip)

Having a means for incoming load-setting, regardless of charging actual amps capacity could be handy. We are next to never on a shore power - and when we are, of course, our batteries are full all the time, anyway - but it MIGHT be useful if we found we had to be ashore and for some reason hadn't equalized recently (our regime is weekly or more often full charging and monthly equalization).

"The Victron units are spendy," - like, what? And, I never have a use for more than 1500 inverter watts; is getting (whatever the Honda will support - and does anyone here KNOW what that is?) the max charge amps available going to mean that I'm also getting huge overcapacity for the inverter portion, at some notable price difference?

Originally Posted by smac999

the better ones will be able to set the shore power size availible. probably only set at 10a on that honda. you'll probably only get 40-50a of charging total. about what you have now from your 40a charger.

IE the magnum and victron are set to 10a shore cord at the control panel. when back at the dock you'd change it back to 30a for full charging.

The current Xantrex - while its screen shows 70A - delivers about 60A through the 2/0 cables. I've torqued the bolts to their spec (I've been in lots of back-and-forth conversation with a tech there and expect another response today regarding that current reality) and improved the throughput very marginally [~3-4A - it used to be worse!], but still not all of it. As the 'shore power' feed to the boat isn't live unless that inverter/charger is live, and it's not been out of the boat for a great while (it's had both boards replaced - at widely separated times, dammit - which, had they BOTH failed at the same time, could have let me directly replace it and saved about 30% from what I had to spend to make that happen) so I have not had the direct-wire bypass on to see what the 40 puts out lately. But, in that process, I believe I recall that it gave up a full 40A; it's not uncommon for us to have a net 10A load. Thus, 90A incoming computes (net 60 + 40 -10). But it seems (based on the reaction of the Honda to an attempt to run both as though we were on a 30A feed as we are now on shore power) that 100A (or, more likely, 110, with a 'load' of 70A on the I/C) can't be supported with a H2000.

And the H2000 is relatively new. Those things are nearly bulletproof, so I expect the Xan I/C will die first. Nor will we have space for a second H2000 - or want to move up to a 3000.

Distressingly, our new Balmar Smartgauge :says: it took all day and night to finish the charge on float; technically, if I can assume it's now smart enough to know our bank, it's not even full, as it's at C=96. At 11AM yesterday it was at 80, and at 9:30PM (no sun or wind, only shore power float) had clawed its way up to 84; another 9 hours managed the summit of 96 as I write.

Today, 720w of new solar goes on the arch. The Blue Sky Solar Boost 6024H will have its various settings tweaked at about noon, with essentially full batteries, for all the parameters of the 3-stage charging specs as given by Trojan for the L16H-ACs new in our bank.

Aside from getting the most possible amps from the H2000, it's my presumption that what (at 12 year old 370w) used to be a top of 20-22A will turn into 40-55A with the two new Sunpower 360s, and the slide into lower Cs will be arrested as well as, in the times I =do= have to use the Honda, that the sun will assist and then keep on working.

So, back to the story, recommendations by part number and link? Any engineer-types here to say "The Honda will deliver X shore amps; use THIS charger (or setting on whatever unit) to get there"?

Thanks. Gotta go get ready for the installation (eat, coffee, etc.)

L8R

Skip

[epiic]

Originally Posted by smac999

Then your power is set lower. A 120a charger will draw 20a. Your gen is probably max 12a

The settings are completely stock.

I haven't had the chance to do any custom programming yet.

It must be adjusting itself automatically...

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

Distressingly, our new Balmar Smartgauge :says: it took all day and night to finish the charge on float; technically, if I can assume it's now smart enough to know our bank, it's not even full, as it's at C=96. At 11AM yesterday it was at 80, and at 9:30PM (no sun or wind, only shore power float) had clawed its way up to 84; another 9 hours managed the summit of 96 as I write.

Skip

I think that is your issue, what Maine Sail calls premature floatuation
You need to stay at absorption voltage until 100% charged, then trip into float. Very, very little if any charging is possible in float, that is of course not float's function.
Now I'm talking theory here as I have not done it yet, but I get from other reputable sources that it's unlikely you will ever get to float on Solar alone, if your dropping into float, you not doing your batteries any good. It is not a matter of number of Amps available, it's a matter of Solar output hours and battery acceptance rate
I intend to keep mine in absorption voltage until I see by watching charging amps that I'm 100% full, then drop it into float. If I get to fully charged by 2 PM on average, then I may set the controller to drop into float at X number of hours that equals 2 PM. However I expect to get close to fully charged every day, like 95%, but not quite there, and will have to run the generator early in the morning to get a jump on the Solar to get to a full 100% charge.

Many people will tell you that they are fully, 100% charged on Solar alone by noon, but others that I have come to respect tell me that is just not possible, not even with unlimited power, battery acceptance rate is such that a full charge by Noon is impossible.
Lead acid is all I'm talking here, other chemistry are likely to change the truth

[a64pilot]

A Honda EU2000i's max continuous power output is 13.3 amps at 120 VAC.
1596 watts if I do the math right, so lets say 1600W.
Take 1600W and divide by your absorption voltage, in my case its 14.3 so 1600 div 14.3 = 111.8. So theoretically I can charge at 111 amps off of a Honda at absorption voltage.
Problem with this is its ignores inefficiency, all chargers get hot, and that heat comes of course from your supply.

My Sterling Pro Charge Ultra claims greater than 90%, so lets just use 90%, that gives a theoretical charge rate of 100.69 amps from a Honda EU 2000I.

I had a couple of Honda's for awhile, they are tough little buggers and are in my opinion a little underrated, so I think you can really get 100 amps out of one at 14.3 VDC, including losses.
However I am no Engineer, so of course someone please check me.


Now that is running one pretty hard, but consider that likely within 30 mins or so depending on the SOC of the bank, your going to be current limited so it won't be running real hard except for the first 30 min or so.
You then run the generator until the output of the Solar due to the ever decreasing acceptance rate of the bank, can supply all the charge amps, then turn off the generator.
The problem with this plan is it requires early morning generator runs, so you sort of need to be in secluded anchorages away by yourself.
The reason you don't run it in the afternoon is that it's a waste then, you have a machine capable of 100 amps charge current, trickling in charge a a low rate.

Just as a data point, I have a 3.5 KW generator, my 185 amps of charging is about all I would want to put on it, it might hold 200 amps, but it would be straining I believe to do so.

[john61ct]

If a big enough bank is only drawn down a small percentage, sunny days lots of panels could well top it up.

If the ratio allows for .5+C charging into a high-acceptance chemistry then even a 50% down bank can reach absorption in a couple hours, that's where lots of panels helps.

Otherwise most need to use fossil fuels to get bulk done earlier.

Bottom line with plain lead is you either increase the inputs to match the outgo, reduce your usage, or live with more frequently replacing your banks, so just use the cheapest GC2s.

Higher acceptance rate chemistries may help reduce the required charge time enough, but the higher expense makes it even more important to make sure you maximise longevity.

A bank that doesn't even need to get to full charge is LiFePO4, but talk about spendy! At least up front, but may be cheaper in the long run in an unfixable chronic PSOC context.

Firefly Oasis may be the in between solution.

[john61ct]

The SmartGauge will get more accurate over time, may take ten? deep cycles and disconnecting it starts over.

Really "float" is just maintenance against self-discharge, negligible current. The charge input must feed any running loads plus a bit or the bank is being drawn down, which means back to absorb voltage and higher current input.

Which reminds me, ake sure your voltage set point is set to the higher end of the mfg specs for your bank, undervolting really slows things down just like under amps.

May want to consider a coulomb-counting monitor as a supplement to the Smartgauge. Reset every known-full top-up, then each cycle, make sure whatever AH taken out gets replaced plus 5-10% extra, ideally using low end-current at Vabs to then reset again as full.

Ideally this is all automated by the monitoring intelligence driving the charger, but some setups best you can do is keep resetting it back to absorb if you're not quite there yet.

I've been looking at Bogart's Trimetric (TM-2030) to drive two of their SC-2030 solar controllers for 60A, I have to believe the Victron/Mastervolt/Redarc world would have something similar.

[Valmika]

I have the Magna 2000 inverter charger and it is also adjustable as to what shore power settings (or generator) you have. They have always answered my calls directly and are out of Washington. If you want give them a call and see if they pick up. They spent 30 minutes with me answering questions before I had even bought a unit. I always cll customer service before I buy a product ;-)
I have the Honda 2000 and I think I have the charger set at around 60 amps. Don't quote me till I check but I know I'm close.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Laughing Buddha

I seem to recall the Honda 2000s can be "dasiy-chained." Maybe buy a second "sea-going" shore power service? Double your pleasure, and keep the inverter charger you have.

Cheers - Jim

This is indeed one answer and the Honda "companion" plus the old Honda will give you 3200 watts to play with. Short of getting a Dometic "soft-start" capacitor thingie, that's the only way we can kick-start A/C on the hook. Even our 2000 W Xantrex charger won't do it.

I have six L-16s (525 Ah/6 VDC=1575 Ah/12VDC), so our setups aren't wildly different. I would suggest your charging capacity is too "lossy" in that you can realistically only send about 10 amps (not 13 A) to the AC side of the charger before you trip or something like the fridge starting throws a wobbly into the circuit on the Honda. I've used my Honda to run power tools instead of running 100 ft of 12 ga. extension cord, and I've found them sensitive to spikes. My 10 amp Makita circular saw can cause it to seize if I plow thorough a knothole and even my smallish air compressor makes it choke. Drills and grinders and sabre-saws? No problem. I've heard similar reports from other sailors: Hondas are great but their circuit-protection is conservative. Fine. Get a Companion model Honda and daisy-chain them. Were it me, however, and I thought the charger/inverter was on the way out and I'd just dropped a couple of grand on new L-16s, I would upgrade the charger as well to operate at different draws. My Xantrex charger can be set at 10, 15, 20, 30 amps, all the way up to 100 amps. I keep it at 20 amps because that leaves "10 for the house" and I can run a couple of lights and chargers on without worry.

I guess the short form here is that a new bank merits a rethink of all the charge sources, and I suspect you are skating a little close to the edge of what you can reliably provide with just one Honda 2000.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by john61ct

If a big enough bank is only drawn down a small percentage, sunny days lots of panels could well top it up.

If the ratio allows for .5+C charging into a high-acceptance chemistry then even a 50% down bank can reach absorption in a couple hours, that's where lots of panels helps.

Otherwise most need to use fossil fuels to get bulk done earlier.

Bottom line with plain lead is you either increase the inputs to match the outgo, reduce your usage, or live with more frequently replacing your banks, so just use the cheapest GC2s.

Higher acceptance rate chemistries may help reduce the required charge time enough, but the higher expense makes it even more important to make sure you maximise longevity.

A bank that doesn't even need to get to full charge is LiFePO4, but talk about spendy! At least up front, but may be cheaper in the long run in an unfixable chronic PSOC context.

Firefly Oasis may be the in between solution.

Well, I went with 800 pounds of lead in the right place on a steel boat precisely because the only useful band for me is the top 20% of battery capacity. If you never go below 75% SOC, life is easier and the mystical unicorn of "solar got me to 100% by noon" can happen...assuming plenty of panels and the right setpoints. And a somewhat parsimonious energy budget in the first place. And the sort of three-foot crimpers one uses to do all those 2/0 ga. cables.

If there are shortcuts here, I haven't found them. More batteries cycled more "shallowly" yield confidence, long battery life and less gymnastics to keep them charged in the first place.